Chris Pronger: End of the Road

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

All but his last year in St. Louis he played with Macinnis.

All three years in Anaheim with Niedermayer (though Nieds didn't play 82 each year).

All three years in Philly with Timonen (and some other pretty solid d-men like Carle, Meszaros, etc.).

In his 1 year alone in STL they were a 7 seed eliminated in the 1st round. Of course, the EDM year was pretty damn impressive.

Not trying to totally disparage his achievements, but he rarely had to be the standout #1 dman on the team.

You ever think that he made those guys better??

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Guess who wins.

The guy who wins 4x the cups than the other guy is the guy who wins.

There's a reason the Wings were so good for 20 years, and it begins and ends with Lidstrom. You don't win 7 Norris trophies just because you have a few other good guys on the team. The only other guy who has won more is freakin Bobby Orr.

Btw, I'll give you the Oilers, but that Ducks team was no slouch. They had guys like Scott Niedermayer, Selanne, Giguere, Getzlaf, Perry, McDonald, Kunitz, Beauchemin amongst others. Pronger wasn't even the best defenseman in the playoffs....the MVP went to Niedermayer.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The guy who wins 4x the cups than the other guy is the guy who wins.

There's a reason the Wings were so good for 20 years, and it begins and ends with Lidstrom. You don't win 7 Norris trophies just because you have a few other good guys on the team. The only other guy who has won more is freakin Bobby Orr.

Btw, I'll give you the Oilers, but that Ducks team was no slouch. They had guys like Scott Niedermayer, Selanne, Giguere, Getzlaf, Perry, McDonald, Kunitz, Beauchemin amongst others. Pronger wasn't even the best defenseman in the playoffs....the MVP went to Niedermayer.

Well the Wings without Lidstrom, Hudler and some other players from last year as pretty well winning at the rate they did last year as the players adhere to the Wings system and you can't argue that the next year of the Oilers, Ducks, and Flyers without Pronger were not the teams they were with him. Niedermayer may have got the MVP but the Ducks don't get a sniff of the Stanley Cup finals without Pronger.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The guy who wins 4x the cups than the other guy is the guy who wins.

There's a reason the Wings were so good for 20 years, and it begins and ends with Lidstrom. You don't win 7 Norris trophies just because you have a few other good guys on the team. The only other guy who has won more is freakin Bobby Orr.

Btw, I'll give you the Oilers, but that Ducks team was no slouch. They had guys like Scott Niedermayer, Selanne, Giguere, Getzlaf, Perry, McDonald, Kunitz, Beauchemin amongst others. Pronger wasn't even the best defenseman in the playoffs....the MVP went to Niedermayer.

The MVP going to Niedermayer is a travesty in my mind.

That playoff run began and ended with Pronger.

Edit: Tied for second in points in the playoffs that year for Anaheim, in two less games played than everyone else in the top 10, significantly better +/- than Neidermayer (Pronger lead the team with a +10), more icetime and the same PIMs.

edit 2: Also, the suspensions he took, while dirty, were also valuable to his team.

[Northendzone]

the boys on teh fan concluded that the winner was lids, because you knoew exactly what he was going to bring - he was mr. steady - whereas you had a bit of the unknown with prongs. hard to disagree with that.

bottom line is that there would be no wrong decision here. it is like halle berry is knocking on the front door, while sofia verga is ringing the bell at the back door.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

One guy played on an absolutely loaded team year after year that had no weaknesses due to great drafting and trades and outspending other teams.

One guy got the Oilers to the cup finals.and took an underdog Ducks team to a cup.

Guess who wins.

Kinda revisionist history calling the 07 Ducks an underdog. Pronger and Niedermayer together was the coup of the decade.

[habernac]

Lidstrom is a top three defenseman all time. Pronger wouldn't make the top ten IMO. Scotty Bowman, who coached a decent player or two, called Lidstrom the best player he ever coached.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The MVP going to Niedermayer is a travesty in my mind.

That playoff run began and ended with Pronger.

Edit: Tied for second in points in the playoffs that year for Anaheim, in two less games played than everyone else in the top 10, significantly better +/- than Neidermayer (Pronger lead the team with a +10), more icetime and the same PIMs.

I agree as Niedermayer won mostly because of reputation and likely a little negative bias against Pronger due to the suspension in the Western Conference Finals.

Let's not forget the season before the Ducks and Oilers met in the playoffs with the Oilers prevailing and going to the finals. The difference was that Pronger was on the Oilers. The next season with Pronger on the Ducks they go to the finals. Not hard to discern that Pronger was the difference not Niedermayer.

[Flash Walken]

I would take Lidstrom to build a team around, I would take Pronger at his peak.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by habernac

Lidstrom is a top three defenseman all time. Pronger wouldn't make the top ten IMO. Scotty Bowman, who coached a decent player or two, called Lidstrom the best player he ever coached.

Name the ten better and please don't go too deep into the days when the game was nowhere near as skilled, fast, and physical as it is today. If he's not top 5 he's close.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I would take Lidstrom to build a team around, I would take Pronger at his peak.

Yep. Like I said before Lidstrom is still the best over his career but at his peak Pronger was better just like I would take Lemieux in his peak over Gretzky. I feel that no player dominated with is size and skill like Lemieux ever in the NHL.

[habernac]

In no particular order:

Orr, Harvey, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Shore, Neidermayer.... you got me, I guess he is top ten. But just barely. ;-)

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by habernac

In no particular order:

Orr, Harvey, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Shore, Neidermayer.... you got me, I guess he is top ten. But just barely. ;-)

Coffey?

Get out of here.

[habernac]

Coffey's the best skater to ever play this game. And in his first ten years, he did things no other defenseman has since. He'd lead a rush, then pass everyone else on the way back into his own end.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by habernac

In no particular order:

Orr, Harvey, Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Shore, Neidermayer.... you got me, I guess he is top ten. But just barely. ;-)

Coffee isn't top 10 IMO (like Housley thousands of points are great but if you couldn't play defense you can't be amongst the best defensemen) and although I didn't see SHore play I'm going to say no there as well because of the era he played. I would put Pronger ahead of Neidermayer (I think he's in the discussion but believe he is somewhat overrated in the sameway Bouwmeester is because he's a gifted skater) and Robinson.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by habernac

Coffey's the best skater to ever play this game. And in his first ten years, he did things no other defenseman has since. He'd lead a rush, then pass everyone else on the way back into his own end.

Aren't we talking about defensemen, though?

Catrina Le May Doan was a fantastic skater.

I'm ribbing you.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

One guy played on an absolutely loaded team year after year that had no weaknesses due to great drafting and trades and outspending other teams.

One guy got the Oilers to the cup finals.and took an underdog Ducks team to a cup.

Guess who wins.

They were tied for the third best record in the league the year they won the cup.

[sun]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

They were tied for the third best record in the league the year they won the cup.

He's probably confusing their their cup win with their 03 run. In 2003, they were an underdog, but Pronger wasn't on the roster.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I watched that video again and the more I watch it the more I dislike Pronger as a person - I mean he laughed about giving McAmmond a concussion and all but said that he deserved it by ducking, the guy should at least have some empathy and say, yeah I wouldn't have done that in retrospect, especially given that he has a bit of an understanding of what a concussion can do.

Talented player but in terms of him as a person he is pretty much a dick it seems.