[News] Blair Jones discussion

[moon]

I would say that Tanguay is easily the worst diver on the team but I can't remember many Jones dives outside of a few last year so I may have missed them.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

This is really irking you, isn't it?

How many times has Jones dived this season? Do you have stats?

Once is too many for my liking, but since Jones isn't even really a full time NHLer our sample size is small.

It seems like it's irking you since it's a simple question that you're refusing to answer.

We have a borderline NHL talent who was sent down for an apparent attitude problem and that's a heart and soul player to you?

[Ozy_Flame]

A heart and soul player is a guy who throws his body around, defends his teammates, blocks shots (gutsy move in itself), setups up the big boys, makes the extra stretch for a PK dump, and goes to bat to rally the team.

You can be a heart and soul player and have an apparent attitude problem. It's unfortunate that this MAY be the case, but until there is solid evidence that this was the case, it's all conjecture. Even then, I would want him back on the team in a heartbeat - he was effective during his time here. He is a definitely 4th liner that I think fits well in the Flames mold.

Now I'll ask you again, how many dives has Jones taken this season? Or last season for that matter?

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

A heart and soul player is a guy who throws his body around, defends his teammates, blocks shots (gutsy move in itself), setups up the big boys, makes the extra stretch for a PK dump, and goes to bat to rally the team.

You can be a heart and soul player and have an apparent attitude problem. It's unfortunate that this MAY be the case, but until there is solid evidence that this was the case, it's all conjecture. Even then, I would want him back on the team in a heartbeat - he was effective during his time here. He is a definitely 4th liner that I think fits well in the Flames mold.

Now I'll ask you again, how many dives has Jones taken this season? Or last season for that matter?

As I mentioned, one is too many for me and I've seen him do it several times. I'm not really interested in counting or finding instances for you, it's been there to see if you're watching the games and it's not a trait of a heart and soul player.

Maybe it's not a big deal to you, but when added to the fact he was apparently demoted for having an attitude problem and the fact he was passed up by every team in the league... I'm fine with him off the team.

The fact you'd turf a guy like Cervenka who's showed real flashes of talent in his rookie season in the NHL really speaks volumes about your opinion.

As I said, I'm glad you're not making any roster decisions. If you like watching guys like Jones enjoy the AHL. It's full them, and for good reason.

[Ozy_Flame]

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, with no stats to back up his "diving", we're done here.

Saying "once is enough" is not an argument with legitimate stats. I thought this would be obvious to you, Cap.

Besides - if he has taken a dive before, are you going suddenly declare him a useless member of the team? No skill? No heart?

I've always been of the opinion that teams need grinders, shift disturbers, pugilists and general pests. I look at guys like Avery, Prust, Ott, and Burrows (yes, Burrows) and although they get under my skin, I'd love to have them on the team. Burrows dives like a champ but he hasn't been cast away by Vancouver simply because he dives alot (more than anyone actually). In fact it's quite the opposite. He's effective, and you can't fault him for that. He helps make Vancouver the contender they are today. Jones isn't on his level I can admit that (both in skill and definitely not in diving) but you get my point.

Good luck with your team full of slick, soft Europeans. I hope that works out for you in your armchair GM career.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Aaaaaaaaaaaand, with no stats to back up his "diving", we're done here.

Saying "once is enough" is not an argument with legitimate stats. I thought this would be obvious to you, Cap.

Besides - if he has taken a dive before, are you going suddenly declare him a useless member of the team? No skill? No heart?

I've always been of the opinion that teams need grinders, shift disturbers, pugilists and general pests. I look at guys like Avery, Prust, Ott, and Burrows (yes, Burrows) and although they get under my skin, I'd love to have them on the team. Burrows dives like a champ but he hasn't been cast away by Vancouver simply because he dives alot (more than anyone actually). In fact it's quite the opposite. He's effective, and you can't fault him for that.

Good luck with your team full of slick, soft Europeans. I hope that works out for you in your armchair GM career.

Yea, I'm the armchair GM suggesting we boot a 2nd/3rd line rookie centre with 3 goals in 17 games off the team for a career AHLer.

Good one boss.

I never wrote Jones off as a player for diving. I said he does dive, and when you add that to the fact he's been demoted for attitude problems, those aren't traits of a heart and soul player.

Apparently you are very offended that he dives, have blinders on and have refused to see it, and have a very different definition of what a heart and soul player is.

That's fine.

By your suggestion of removing a skilled NHL caliber rookie for a career AHLer that all 30 teams just passed up for free... we also have very different ideas about what an NHL team should consist of too.

Good chatting with you, that was some entertaining stuff.

[Ozy_Flame]

Same with you, Cap.

Until you come up with actual stats or at least examples of his dives (with proof), your argument is about as useful as cat poop. Asking me to answer a question but can't backup your own claims - I love teh interwebs - It's serious business!

Jones for the 4th line any day of the week. And Backlund for the #2 spot. That's my armchair GM position.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Same with you, Cap.

Until you come up with actual stats or at least examples of his dives (with proof), your argument is about as useful as cat poop. Asking me to answer a question but can't backup your own claims - I love teh interwebs - It's serious business!

Jones for the 4th line any day of the week. And Backlund for the #2 spot. That's my armchair GM position.

Anyone who watches the Flames knows that Jones dives. I don't see why you're so upset by it.

As I said, it isn't his diving that invalidates him as a permanent player on our roster. It's his borderline NHL skills.

Which makes it all the more head-scratching why you'd elect to remove Cervenka from the lineup in place of Jones. That discussion is ridiculous in and of itself.

One of them is currently playing on our top line, and the other is in the minors where all 30 teams just passed on him for free. That couldn't speak any louder as to the point here.

That would be the difference between being an actual GM and an armchair one on the interwebs.

[Muta]

Cap - just curious, are you going to post Jones' diving stats, or not?

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Muta

Cap - just curious, are you going to post Jones' diving stats, or not?

Sorry, divingstats.com is down.

You're just going to have to take my word for it.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

Sorry, divingstats.com is down.

You're just going to have to take my word for it.

Fine, but actual numbers would really help better represent your case.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Muta

Fine, but actual numbers would really help better represent your case.

I honestly thought you were just being sarcastic.

It actually has nothing to do with my "case"... which is that dropping Cervenka and bringing back Jones is asinine.

The only reason I mentioned the diving was because Ozzy seems to think Jones is a heart and soul caliber player. I don't agree with that, and was asking him (4 times) why he thought so.

We have different ideas of what makes a heart and soul player, but even a bigger difference of opinion on what kind of players best make up an NHL roster.

[Ozy_Flame]

Cap, I didn't say replace Cervenka with Jones, I said replace Cervenka with Backlund on the 2nd line. He becomes redundant at that point, and therefore I'm happy to see him walk.

I know the type of player he is - and just don't see the need for him in the long run, especially if our real issue is finding a true #1 center, and letting Backlund grow into his role (which he was doing rather well this season). I am aware Jones cannot replace the skill lost from Cervenka, but he brings other elements that Cervenka does not, which brings me back to square one in this arguement.

Tanguay
Backlund
Stajan
Jones
extra body: Horak

Not sure what is surprising here?

I also defined a heart and soul player to you. You have failed to answer where these diving stats are numerous times and instead just "take your word for it".

Just think how that comes across in a debate. Am I supposed to take your opinion as fac because you said so? And after dodging answering it directly numerous times? Good gravy, no.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I honestly thought you were just being sarcastic.

It actually has nothing to do with my "case"... which is that dropping Cervenka and bringing back Jones is asinine.

The only reason I mentioned the diving was because Ozzy seems to think Jones is a heart and soul caliber player. I don't agree with that, and was asking him (4 times) why he thought so.

We have different ideas of what makes a heart and soul player, but even a bigger difference of opinion on what kind of players best make up an NHL roster.

I understand that, but do you even know the actual diving stats on Jones, or not?

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Muta

I understand that, but do you even know the actual diving stats on Jones, or not?

Do you?

Are there such stats?

He has a limited sample size of games to look at, but I've seen him dive several times.

Are you saying he doesn't dive?

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Cap, I didn't say replace Cervenka with Jones, I said replace Cervenka with Backlund on the 2nd line. He becomes redundant at that point, and therefore I'm happy to see him walk..

You didn't say that at all. You said:

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I would like to see Cervenka gone.

And followed that up by stating you'd then bring Jones back.

This team has the weakest collection of centres in the league, and since returning from injury, Cervenka has put up 3 goals in 17 games as a rookie.

I can't even begin to state how crazy that would be waive him in the middle of the season when we have zero depth down the middle.

I also defined a heart and soul player to you. You have failed to answer where these diving stats are numerous times and instead just "take your word for it".

Just think how that comes across in a debate. Am I supposed to take your opinion as fac because you said so? And after dodging answering it directly numerous times? Good gravy, no.

And I told you that just like we have very different ideas as to what makes up an NHL roster, we have different definitions on what makes up a heart and soul player.

To me, it's not a borderline NHL level talent who has attitude problems and is a known diver.

There are no diving statistics to point to. Either you watch the Flames or you don't... and if you do, you can't tell me you haven't seen the guy dive several times in his limited number of games here. Sticking your thumbs in your ears and ignoring the fact he's done this before is fine. But it's childish.

At the end of the day, I think you have a terrible definition of what a heart and soul player is, and an even more suspect idea as to how an NHL team should be run cutting a promising looking rookie for no reason in the middle of the season.

[Ozy_Flame]

lol OK champ, whatever you say. You can't back up your argument and outright lie about and ignore many things that I said to you. I'm going to bed, I have work in the morning. This was fun.

[Captain_Obvious]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

lol OK champ, whatever you say. You can't back up your argument and outright lie about and ignore many things that I said to you. I'm going to bed, I have work in the morning. This was fun.

lol, you didn't even bring up Backlund until two posts ago. You do realize that what you've posted is still there one page back do you not? When I re-post your quotes, I am copying and pasting what you said.

Another post in your own words:

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

I would take a heart/soul guy any day of the week. I believe Jones has more of it than Cervenka.

I realize that it's not fun when illogical notions get pointed out, but that's what happened here.

You can take solace in the fact that you're free to think whatever you want as an armchair GM. But when you post it in words on an internet forum, it becomes subject to criticism.

And "getting rid of Cervenka" for a "heart and soul guy" like Blair Jones just makes no sense.

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

A heart and soul player is a guy who throws his body around, defends his teammates, blocks shots (gutsy move in itself), setups up the big boys, makes the extra stretch for a PK dump, and goes to bat to rally the team.

Throws his body around? He had 13 hits in 11 games this season, and few if any of those hits were big ones. For comparison, everyone's favorite whipping boy, Blake Comeau, averages about 50% more per game.

Defends his teammates? He hasn't had a single fight while in Calgary.

Blocks shots? He had 4 of them this season.

Sets up the big guys? One assist in 11 games.

The only stat that looks good for him is his hot start to the season in the faceoff circle, but even there, you have to remember that he only won 42% of his faceoffs last year.

Regardless of what did or did not happen off the ice and whether or not he's a frequent diver, he was our worst forward in the early part of the season. He always got a pass because people still think of him as a kid despite the fact that he was born the same year as Comeau, but he's just not that good.

[Poe969]

Hmmmmm, wonder why some people like this kid so much?

Not that offensively tallented....check!
"grinder".....check!
played a good game now everyone thinks he'll be awesome forever......check!
was part of last years magical run to 9th place....check (but we totaly would have made it further if he didn't get hurt)

He isn't that good and probably wouldn't make it near the roster of a contending team. If we want to be a good team, we have to get good players. Blair Jones is not a good hockey player. We need to go after tallent, not wanna be fourth line players