Hugo Chavez has died

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Not to derail the thread too much, but Iraq was about Halliburton and those companies who made an absolute killing (literally and figuretively) as war profiteers.

That happened long before you showed up.....no worries there.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Not to mention the thousands of his own people he murdered in the name of socialism.

The world is a better place without him.

Thousands murdered? Really? I didn't know that.

All the media reports of his death (and, IIRC during his life) was that he was a bombastic, election-rule-bending, power-consolidating, crook.

Genocide was usually left out of the equation though. You'd think that would have been mentioned. Especially in those days when he was in the UN calling Bush "the devil".

What's the story behind the murdered thousands?

[TurnedTheCorner]

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by blankall

Except that invading Iraq didn't actually increase global oil supply. In fact, it dramatically decreased it. Particularly during the terms Bush was in power.

We're only now at pre-production levels:

http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.asp...aph=production

America only gets a tiny fraction of their oil from Iraq:

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move...im0_mbbl_m.htm

So basically, you are saying the US invaded Iraq, drove up the price of oil dramtically, in order to gain greater access to a fraction of a percent of their oil supply?

Oh and that's not how it played out at all. The US was getting far more Iraqi oil in the years proir to the latest invasion:

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/Lea...s=MTTIMIZ1&f=M

Believe it or not, the USA is actually making good on their promiss to wean themselves off middle eastern oil:

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/Lea...s=MTTIMXX1&f=M

Considering that the US population, and the demand for energy with it, is rapidly growing, any decrease in oil imports is a huge accomplishment. The 40% or so decrease we've seen is ridiculous.

Not to jump fully on board with Bertuzzied, but the intended outcome of the war in Iraq and the actual outcome of the war in Iraq were often very, very different.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

'

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Not to mention the thousands of his own people he murdered in the name of socialism.

The world is a better place without him.

Can you provide a link to where he murdered his own people?

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Not to jump fully on board with Bertuzzied, but the intended outcome of the war in Iraq and the actual outcome of the war in Iraq were often very, very different.

There was no real planning involved in the Iraq war... just wishful thinking.

[Slacker]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Thousands murdered? Really? I didn't know that.

All the media reports of his death (and, IIRC during his life) was that he was a bombastic, election-rule-bending, power-consolidating, crook.

Genocide was usually left out of the equation though. You'd think that would have been mentioned. Especially in those days when he was in the UN calling Bush "the devil".

What's the story behind the murdered thousands?

This is what I remember when I was living there. Some of the stuff happened while I was living there, until May 2004. There are a few things that occurred after I left.

Not sure about the thousands murdered people, but I can tell you that he had armed civilian groups called "Bolivarian circles" (Named after Venezuela's hero Simon Bolivar"). It was known that the government armed them with the idea of intimidating people. I don't remember if there was confirmation of Chavez working with Colombia's guerrilla.

Regarding elections, he was able to change the constitution (at the time, he had over 66% control of the congress) to allow the president go into elections as many times he wanted.

He used electronic voting systems instead of pen and paper like we have here in Canada. That way, he was able to track people who voted against him and worked in a public/government job and fire them. There was also rumors that dead people were voting and that he was manipulating votes with the machine's software. He had said multiple times that he is going to be Venezuela's president until 2021.

News were also regulated, at least through the official government. Chavez managed to close some of private TV stations (RCTV is the one that comes to mind). He had threatened the TV stations and newspapers in the past.

A few years ago, Chavez ordered to open Simon Bolivar's grave to investigate that Colombia leaders did not assassinate him (He did in 1830 if I remember correctly). Oddly enough, all the people who was there when the coffin was opened have died. Chavez was the last person to die.

In the end, Chavez wanted to make Venezuela like Cuba. He is responsible for making Venezuela a poorer country, even though oil prices were sky high at some points during his ruling. The value of human life means nothing over there, someone could kill you for a pair of shoes.

I am going to apologize for not providing links, remembering some the stuff that I lived or saw happening on a day to day have been a bit painful to remember. I truly hope things change over there.

But you have no idea how happy I am to live in Canada and Calgary.

[Matty81]

How was Chavez a dictator? Seriously asking... Because I thought he barely won an election about 5 months ago?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Slacker

This is what I remember when I was living there. Some of the stuff happened while I was living there, until May 2004. There are a few things that occurred after I left.

Not sure about the thousands murdered people, but I can tell you that he had armed civilian groups called "Bolivarian circles" (Named after Venezuela's hero Simon Bolivar"). It was known that the government armed them with the idea of intimidating people. I don't remember if there was confirmation of Chavez working with Colombia's guerrilla.

Regarding elections, he was able to change the constitution (at the time, he had over 66% control of the congress) to allow the president go into elections as many times he wanted.

He used electronic voting systems instead of pen and paper like we have here in Canada. That way, he was able to track people who voted against him and worked in a public/government job and fire them. There was also rumors that dead people were voting and that he was manipulating votes with the machine's software. He had said multiple times that he is going to be Venezuela's president until 2021.

News were also regulated, at least through the official government. Chavez managed to close some of private TV stations (RCTV is the one that comes to mind). He had threatened the TV stations and newspapers in the past.

A few years ago, Chavez ordered to open Simon Bolivar's grave to investigate that Colombia leaders did not assassinate him (He did in 1830 if I remember correctly). Oddly enough, all the people who was there when the coffin was opened have died. Chavez was the last person to die.

In the end, Chavez wanted to make Venezuela like Cuba. He is responsible for making Venezuela a poorer country, even though oil prices were sky high at some points during his ruling. The value of human life means nothing over there, someone could kill you for a pair of shoes.

I am going to apologize for not providing links, remembering some the stuff that I lived or saw happening on a day to day have been a bit painful to remember. I truly hope things change over there.

But you have no idea how happy I am to live in Canada and Calgary.

I gotta admit I've never heard of the "Bolivarian Circles", so I'll take your word on that. The rest of what you've said is common knowledge though. We all knew all that stuff.

He was corrupt, a weasel, undemocratic, a bully... obviously all bad stuff that nobody (I doubt) is going to defend, but "murdering thousands of people in the name of socialism" is a hell of a claim and should probably be backed up by the person who made it.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think a lot of the whole murder thing is based around the excesses of the Police and internal spy agency that sent people to jails that were as bad as soviet Gulags to basically die.

Chavez choose to ignore and not start an investigation into those agencies because they were doing a great job of killing dissent.

[CaptainCrunch]

I love the fact that the government there has come out with the American's gave him cancer and assassinated our great leader.

Cue the conspiracy theory nuts.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Not to jump fully on board with Bertuzzied, but the intended outcome of the war in Iraq and the actual outcome of the war in Iraq were often very, very different.

It doesn't take a genius to predict that invading a country might disrupt their oil production.

Honestly, if people think things were bad in the middle East while dictators were being propped up/taken down by the USA, just wait until the USA ends its oil interest there. That void will be filled by China.

[NBC]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I love the fact that the government there has come out with the American's gave him cancer and assassinated our great leader.

Cue the conspiracy theory nuts.

This might be more fitting.

[stazzy33]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Cue the conspiracy theory nuts.

Speaking of conspiracies, Paul Bearer (of WWE fame) died last night at the same age as Chavez.

Coincidence?

Spoiler!

I think not...

[habernac]

Hope this gets Venezuela on track to become a freer country. I spent half a year there as a kid, one of the most beautiful places I've ever been to. I've met a few Venezuelan people in Calgary who had to flee for their lives. They love Calgary, but miss home.

[burn_this_city]

Apparently they're planning on preserving his body and displaying it like Lenin.

[Ozy_Flame]

Jean Chretien is in attendance at his funeral. With Raul Castro. And Mahmoud Ahmadenijad.

That will look really good if he's in Caracas, and not in Canada for Stompin' Tom's funeral.

[CaptainCrunch]

Jean always did like his anti-american despots

Carrying on the Trudeau tradition.