Flames Are A Bottom Feeder Without Kipper?

[Roof-Daddy]

In the past few years I might have partly agreed with this sentiment, but I don't buy it anymore......not this year.

Yet, I still see that statement on this site with some regularity.

"Maybe Kipper getting hurt has been the eye opener we all need. This roster is brutal, and without allstar goaltending is a bottom feeder team in this league"

...is a recent post I read on here, and is utterly false IMO.

First, we weren't getting anywhere near "allstar goaltending" from Kipper up until he got hurt, although his last two games he was starting to come around.

Secondly, numbers seem to show that this team shouldn't need allstar goaltending to succeed, just some semblance of at least NHL quality goaltending.

Crappy goaltending is probably the worst thing that could have happened this year, because a quarter of the way through our season, the Flames are looking like a top 1/3 offensive, puck possession team in not only the West, but also the league.....at least if the numbers are any indication.

Goals per game - 2.92 - 4th in the WEST, 8th in the league
Goals against per game - 3.42 - 15th in the WEST, 27th in the league

Shots per game - 30.8 - 2nd in the WEST, 5th in the league
Shots allowed per game - 26.6 - 2nd in the WEST, 4th in the league

Powerplay - 27.3% - 2nd in the WEST, 3rd in the league
Penaltykill - 70.4% - 14th in the WEST, 28th in the league

Since teams are only playing interconference this season, I'm going to use those ranking when making my points here.

Not much of a discrepancy offensively, 2nd in shots per game, 4th in goals per game, and a really solid PP. More shots = more good scoring chances = more goals.

On the flip side however, despite giving up the 2nd FEWEST shots per game in the west, the Flames are giving up the most goals.

That points to sub par goaltending....or, our goaltending is actually holding us back, NOT the other way around.

As for the PK, well being shorthanded is inevitably going to lead to scoring chances against, that's why they say your best penalty killer is your goaltender....well, not when your goaltending is a blatant weakness.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this team is a bonafide Cup contender, or without it's glaring weaknesses, but please don't tell me this team is complete crap, and one of the worst in the league without Kipper. The team is actually playing with the puck A LOT more, creating offense both at even strength and with the PP, out shooting and out chancing the opposition regularly, and if it were getting just decent goaltending right now we'd probably be occupying a playoff spot.


Also, I am anticipating the "shots don't equal quality scoring chances" argument here.

Well, maybe if you pick a game here or there and dissect it, yes....but not over a 12 game sample size IMO.

If you come with this argument, please, provide some hard line stats that the Flames are consistently being out chanced on a game by game basis despite having one of the better shots for/against ratios in the entire league over 12 games. If you bring me that, my hats off to you.

[Sakari]

Offensively, we are some of the best in the league, somehow. Defensively, we could say the same. If the numbers are right, anyways. We need to work on our PK in every aspect of it, however we are the least penalized team in the league. Our problem is definitely goaltending, and I definitely see Kipper picking up his play.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

In the past few years I might have partly agreed with this sentiment, but I don't buy it anymore......not this year.

Yet, I still see that statement on this site with some regularity.

"Maybe Kipper getting hurt has been the eye opener we all need. This roster is brutal, and without allstar goaltending is a bottom feeder team in this league"

...is a recent post I read on here, and is utterly false IMO.

First, we weren't getting anywhere near "allstar goaltending" from Kipper up until he got hurt, although his last two games he was starting to come around.

Secondly, numbers seem to show that this team shouldn't need allstar goaltending to succeed, just some semblance of at least NHL quality goaltending.

Crappy goaltending is probably the worst thing that could have happened this year, because a quarter of the way through our season, the Flames are looking like a top 1/3 offensive, puck possession team in not only the West, but also the league.....at least if the numbers are any indication.

Goals per game - 2.92 - 4th in the WEST, 8th in the league
Goals against per game - 3.42 - 15th in the WEST, 27th in the league

Shots per game - 30.8 - 2nd in the WEST, 5th in the league
Shots allowed per game - 26.6 - 2nd in the WEST, 4th in the league

Powerplay - 27.3% - 2nd in the WEST, 3rd in the league
Penaltykill - 70.4% - 14th in the WEST, 28th in the league

Since teams are only playing interconference this season, I'm going to use those ranking when making my points here.

Not much of a discrepancy offensively, 2nd in shots per game, 4th in goals per game, and a really solid PP. More shots = more good scoring chances = more goals.

On the flip side however, despite giving up the 2nd FEWEST shots per game in the west, the Flames are giving up the most goals.

That points to sub par goaltending....or, our goaltending is actually holding us back, NOT the other way around.

As for the PK, well being shorthanded is inevitably going to lead to scoring chances against, that's why they say your best penalty killer is your goaltender....well, not when your goaltending is a blatant weakness.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this team is a bonafide Cup contender, or without it's glaring weaknesses, but please don't tell me this team is complete crap, and one of the worst in the league without Kipper. The team is actually playing with the puck A LOT more, creating offense both at even strength and with the PP, out shooting and out chancing the opposition regularly, and if it were getting just decent goaltending right now we'd probably be occupying a playoff spot.


Also, I am anticipating the "shots don't equal quality scoring chances" argument here.

Well, maybe if you pick a game here or there and dissect it, yes....but not over a 12 game sample size IMO.

If you come with this argument, please, provide some hard line stats that the Flames are consistently being out chanced on a game by game basis despite having one of the better shots for/against ratios in the entire league over 12 games. If you bring me that, my hats off to you.

You took my quote.

Forget watching the games for a second, the argument lies in the results. What place is the team in? What is the flames goals against in the conference like? Least wins in the league and 2 wins were against tired teams. Quarter of the year is done, think we can assess the team on pure results rather than saying it is too small a sample size. "intellectual honesty..."

[Caged Great]

The problem the Flames have is that a significant portion of their roster is not of NHL caliber.

All of Jackman, Begin, Comeau, Stajan, Babchuk, Smith, Sarich, Butler, Horak, Irving, MacDonald, Taylor, Street, Byron are not NHL quality players.

When you have that many guys that are not quality, it puts strain on everyone because the legit guys have to cover for the mistakes of the bad players. Look at the Dallas game as an example. If it wasn't for the legit guys making swiss cheese of the opposition, the non NHL guys would've cost the Flames the game.

Offensively, we do have enough weapons between Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencross, Hudler, Stempniak, Cervenka, Backlund, and Baertschi that we can have offensive explosions. When your goaltending and certain defenders have been sub standard, you give up just as much.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

You took my quote.

Forget watching the games for a second, the argument lies in the results. What place is the team in? What is the flames goals against in the conference like? Least wins in the league and 2 wins were against tired teams. Quarter of the year is done, think we can assess the team on pure results rather than saying it is too small a sample size. "intellectual honesty..."

Yeap, was yours.

Okay, forget watching the games.

Look at the numbers I posted then.



The numbers alone clearly show a team that is carrying more than their share of the play, consistently out shooting the opposition, yet despite scoring plenty of goals, consistently getting outscored.

Goaltending is holding us back from winning, not losing as you (and many others) seem to suggest.

[Sakari]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

The problem the Flames have is that a significant portion of their roster is not of NHL caliber.

All of Jackman, Begin, Comeau, Stajan, Babchuk, Smith, Sarich, Butler, Horak, Irving, MacDonald, Taylor, Street, Byron are not NHL quality players.

That's a terrible statement. Stajan has been great this year, he leads the team in plus minus and has 5 assists. IMO, Sarich has been pretty good in the games he's played. Jackman is surely NHL caliber for a grinder, he just needs to play a more physical game. Babchuk is definitely good, he just needs to be used on the PP.

Begin, Smith, Butler, Horak, Taylor, Street, and Byron, are all either scratched or in the AHL more than they play. Byron has played 3 minutes of ice time, and Taylor has not played one game. Smith has barely played, and Butler has played a few good games. The only players we can argue that should not have a roster spot whatsoever are Comeau and Taylor, and Taylor is simply a call-up because we have an injured starter.

[bubbsy]

I commend you on a well thought out and well supported rebuttal.

You may be on to something. I just feel that the d isn't strong enough, the forwards aren't hard enough to play with. The opposition is always in it and their is no discouragement or difficulty in gaining back momentum.

With that in mind, I feel elite/allstar goaltending is required to be competitive. Decent or less just wont cut it with this roster, as teams will be given plenty of opportunity.

[TurnedTheCorner]

The Flames are kind of a bottom feeder with Kipper.

[Henry Fool]

They have a bit of offensive skill but centers are the defensive backbone of any forward group and they have none.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Sakari

That's a terrible statement. Stajan has been great this year, he leads the team in plus minus and has 5 assists. IMO, Sarich has been pretty good in the games he's played. Jackman is surely NHL caliber for a grinder, he just needs to play a more physical game. Babchuk is definitely good, he just needs to be used on the PP.

Begin, Smith, Butler, Horak, Taylor, Street, and Byron, are all either scratched or in the AHL more than they play. Byron has played 3 minutes of ice time, and Taylor has not played one game. Smith has barely played, and Butler has played a few good games. The only players we can argue that should not have a roster spot whatsoever are Comeau and Taylor, and Taylor is simply a call-up because we have an injured starter.

Stajan has been acceptable as an NHLer, but not for 3.5 million (that's why he gets a lot less credit in my book)

Sarich has been invisible and slow, with the exception of the one guy he hit in the Stars game.

Jackman has been completely useless. Doesn't hit, doesn't contribute offensively. Waste of a roster spot. Ben Street contributed more and he's not an NHLer either.

Babchuk looked slower than Theo Fleury from his tryout last night. If you can't skate at even a below average NHL level, you're not an NHL player. His speed is terrible.

Butler has been mostly ineffective with little flashes of decent play. Reminds me somewhat of a less skilled version of Anders Eriksson that thinks the game only marginally better.

The rest of the guys are fringy guys that aren't showing that they deserve a job. That can change, but the time to show something is now and none of them have taken advantage of the injury situation.

Byron did look decent in the 3 minutes he played, just bad luck in his case.

I might be being a little harsh and honest, but when you're only better than the Columbus Blue Jackets, you need to evaluate things a little more critically.

[Sakari]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Stajan has been acceptable as an NHLer, but not for 3.5 million (that's why he gets a lot less credit in my book)

Sarich has been invisible and slow, with the exception of the one guy he hit in the Stars game.

Jackman has been completely useless. Doesn't hit, doesn't contribute offensively. Waste of a roster spot. Ben Street contributed more and he's not an NHLer either.

Babchuk looked slower than Theo Fleury from his tryout last night. If you can't skate at even a below average NHL level, you're not an NHL player. His speed is terrible.

Butler has been mostly ineffective with little flashes of decent play. Reminds me somewhat of a less skilled version of Anders Eriksson that thinks the game only marginally better.

The rest of the guys are fringy guys that aren't showing that they deserve a job. That can change, but the time to show something is now and none of them have taken advantage of the injury situation.

Byron did look decent in the 3 minutes he played, just bad luck in his case.

I might be being a little harsh and honest, but when you're only better than the Columbus Blue Jackets, you need to evaluate things a little more critically.

I really can't argue that this team lacks depth, because it does. With only 1 defensive pairing that almost always plays a great game and only one NHL centerman filling his role, there's obviously room for improvement. Babchuk will take a while to get back up to NHL pace but when he does, wouldn't be shocked if his bomb of a shot keeps him in a Flames uni. But we can't argue that the Flames have played a full 60 minutes in the majority of their games, and that goaltending has truly been our main issue.

[Roof-Daddy]

I must not be very adept at getting my point across when I make big long posts like the above.

You can argue each individual player, whether they are elite, useless, old, young, talented, pluggish, etc, until the cows come home.

You can argue how weak they are at center, how small the team is, how soft physically they are, how little depth they may or may not have, until you're blue in the face.

The point remains, the stats I posted (as well as my eyeballs from watching, IMO) show a team that:

- controls a lot of the play
- out shoots the opposition regularly
- scores more than it's share of goals

...yet is being victimized mainly by sub par goaltending so far this season.

This is not a bottom feeding team that's being saved from cellar dwelling by Kipper or any other goalie.

This is actually a pretty good hockey team that is being held back by the underwhelming performance by it's goaltending collective so far this season.

Am I right?

[Flashpoint]

This team hasn't made the playoffs in 3 years.

They're a bottom feeder even with Kipper.

I recall Al Coates in the young guns era saying because we were 9th in GF we were not in need of help up front. This isn't much different - we score goals when it doesn't matter, and lack them when we need them to win.

We're a bad team. But at least it'll only take a half season for Feaster to finally clue in to what the rest of us have known for going on a half decade...

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I must not be very adept at getting my point across when I make big long posts like the above.

You can argue each individual player, whether they are elite, useless, old, young, talented, pluggish, etc, until the cows come home.

You can argue how weak they are at center, how small the team is, how soft physically they are, how little depth they may or may not have, until you're blue in the face.

The point remains, the stats I posted (as well as my eyeballs from watching, IMO) show a team that:

- controls a lot of the play
- out shoots the opposition regularly
- scores more than it's share of goals

...yet is being victimized mainly by sub par goaltending so far this season.

This is not a bottom feeding team that's being saved from cellar dwelling by Kipper or any other goalie.

This is actually a pretty good hockey team that is being held back by the underwhelming performance by it's goaltending collective so far this season.

Am I right?

I'm thinking that if we had Kipper from last year, we'd be in the top half of the standings. Even if we only had an average goalie, we'd likely be close to a playoff spot.

The lack of quality on the lower part of the roster just exacerbates the problem

[vektor]

Answer me this:

how many teams contend for the Stanley Cup with way below average goaltending?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by vektor

Answer me this:

how many teams contend for the Stanley Cup with way below average goaltending?

Obvious answer is obvious.

Not the point of the thread, though....not even close.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Obvious answer is obvious.

Not the point of the thread, though....not even close.

alright mr. dictator, better not stray off course

[GirlySports]

They're a bottom feeder without Backlund, losing him really hurt.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by vektor

Answer me this:

how many teams contend for the Stanley Cup with way below average goaltending?

Teams with Chris Pronger.

[zamler]

Suppose you are correct and the Flames are a playoff team with good goaltending. Why doesn't this club have a trusted backup goalie? At some point you had to know that Kipper was either going to get injured, or his play was going to fall off.

Having said that, I don't agree with you at all, the Flames are giving up grade-A scoring chances, we are way too soft in our own zone no goalie is going to fix that.