Difference between rebuild and business as usual

[Calgary4LIfe]

How do you build a championship team?

Show me one single Stanley Cup Winner since the lockout that didn't do the following 4 things well:

1) Drafting
2) Development
3) Good trades
4) Good free agent signings

Miss out on a single point, and you miss out on the cup.

Nevermind you need some luck. As much as I hate saying it, Vancouver put together a Stanley Cup calibre team, but either were 'unlucky', or didn't have enough character, or whatever else you want to say.

Oilers I think kind of did their rebuild a bit incorrectly (which isn't to say that it won't work in the long term - much like Chicago's).

I am not sure how good their scouting is, or their development program is, but they haven't seemed to have drafted much help outside their 'fab 4' now. Maybe I am not aware of what else is coming through the pipe, or I am underrating guys like Hartikainen and Lander. They also were 'unlucky' enough to do it when the overall #1 picks were probably a step below in that time span (which is arguable, I know, for at least a couple more years minimum until players show further development). However, looking back at other #1 overall picks, it is hard to make a case for Edmonton's 1st overalls being better players than guys like Stamkos and Tavares.

I think the most important thing an organization needs is proper scouting and development.

Anyone know how big the Flames' scouting staff is? Who they are? How much it has grown in the last 4 years (starting under Darryl's watch)?

What about the Flames' development program personnel? How big is that area in the organization, compared to what it was 5 and 10 years ago?

Too many posters seem to be stuck in the 'Flames suck at scouting and development' area. Sure, NOTHING will be proven until more prospects come through the system, for sure. However, they are starting to trickle through now. Next season I would think the Heat move up a peg in talent. It takes a while for players to finish off their junior careers and start making an impact on the Heat, and then get a leg up on the Flames.

Without looking at all the other teams in the NHL that have been getting top 10 picks over the years (NYI, Florida, CBJ, etc) that have not experienced success later on, and even teams like Chicago during their 1st or 2nd rebuild (depending on how you see it, Toews+Kane could be argued as their 3rd consecutive rebuild, but at least 2nd), I would bet that the Flames' have a much bigger scouting staff now.

To build a franchise properly, you don't need to tear it down. You don't need to trade all your vets for prospects and futures. This does give a team a better chance at finding franchise players, but it doesn't equate to building a championship calibre team. You do so by having a strong scouting and development program. It also helps to bring players in surrounded by good, hard-working vets that lead the way. Even Crosby had Guerin, and he credited Guerin a lot to the Pens' success.

In my opinion (which counts for absolutely nothing, other than just food for thought) the Flames are on step 3 of their rebuild. Yep, laugh all you want.

This is what I see the Flames having accomplished in their rebuild:

1) Setup their development program. The Abbotsford Heat are essentially 'controlled' by them. If Gaudreau comes to the Heat, and Ward thinks the best chance for the Heat to win is benching Gaudreau, Flames can just call Ward up and tell him to put him on the top line. Many teams don't get this ability to dictate how much and in what circumstances their prospects play. They also have development staff that keep tabs on players' progressions - workout regimes, skating clinics, feedback for players AND their respective coaches, etc. How long have they been doing this? How has it been changing over the years? They have been adding to it.

2) Scouting. Correct me if I am wrong, but how many scouts were on the payroll when Darryl Sutter took over as GM? I believe the Flames had 1 full-time scout (Todd) and 2 part-time (I THINK this was the case - someone in these forums would know for sure). Sutter convinced the owners that they need to spend more there (as well as creating the Heat). Feaster has taken that mantra and expanded it. How many scouts do the Flames have now? I don't know for sure, but I believe I have heard somewhere last season they had 11.

3) This is the step they are on NOW. Stopped the 'bleeding' of futures for 'win now'. Contrary to what people keep insinuating that the Flames are in a 'win now' mentality, that is not exactly the case. It isn't just black and white. Flames are in a 'competitive now', not 'win now'. "Win now" means you are trading futures to load up for a run. How many years have the Flames not done this for? They are also changing the guard. There was a HUGE gap between the effective 'core' of this team, and.. well.. there was nothing much else really. Now look at the team. Sure, the Flames' top line still consists of 3 guys over 30, with a goalie that is over 30. However, that used to practically be the entire 3 top lines!

There is a fundamental shift in how the Flames are going about their 'business as usual'. What is business as usual? Does "business as usual" mutually exclusive to rebuilding? Mutually exclusive to loading up for a cup run? Business as usual is what every team does - try to improve. Flames are 'fixing' their franchise on the ground floor - their foundations. In every respectable organization, you start with your front office. Why do people think that CBJ is about to embark on a better rebuild than the ones that they have had in the past? Because John Davidson is there to make sure it is done correctly. By shrewd drafting and development, and by building a good hockey ops department. EXACTLY what the Flames have been working on.

Changes are coming - they are just not as fast as a lot of people want to see. People have become fixated on seeing Iginla and Kipper on the team, and yelling: "We want change!". Not everyone has noticed that change has been occurring, and more change is coming. Unless the Flames go on a serious run soon (and though I am optimistic personally on the Flames - maybe I am too much of a 'fan', or perhaps I just WANT to believe in this team too much - but even I have my doubts this will happen) we are seeing Iginla's last 'x' games as a member of the Flames.

Think of it this way:

Many of you are pointing at the owners 'not caring' about winning, as long as they put butts in the seats (though, if they didn't care, why the heck would they be spending to the cap, willing to bury players in the AHL constantly, willing to buy Ramo out of his team, willing to expand the hockey ops department drastically, etc, if they just cared about money?). Many posters feel that by trading away Iginla, the owners would be scared that they would not sell enough tickets. What would be a bigger fear than that? Having Iginla leave for nothing. There is NO WAY that Iginla will remain a Flame past the trade deadline without a new contract, and there is only one reason why there isn't one yet - both sides are taking a 'wait and see' approach on how this team does.

I hope the Flames continue to expand their hockey ops department a bit. Hire a few more amateur as well as professional scouts. I hope they strive for continual improvement in that area. Is it 'working'? Well, it SEEMS to be getting better. Proof will be in the pudding, but this area (to me) is the biggest beacon of hope in this franchise.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

Detroit has drafted off the top of my head:
Hudler, filpulla, ericcson,samuelsson, Tatar, leino, matthias, Howard, helm, jiri Fischer, nyquist, kronwall, smith.

Calgary
Phaneuf, Brodie Lombardi, nystrom, bouma, and not much else... Although I am sure I am missing a couple names.

If the bolded guys count not sure why you didn't add Sven, Reinhart, Breen, Anderson and Crosby to your Flames list.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Dienasty

Detroit has drafted off the top of my head:
Hudler, filpulla, ericcson,samuelsson, Tatar, leino, matthias, Howard, helm, jiri Fischer, nyquist, kronwall, smith.

Calgary
Phaneuf, Brodie Lombardi, nystrom, bouma, and not much else... Although I am sure I am missing a couple names.

Wow.

How many times do I have to say this: Calgary's drafting has been horrible. We all know this and I have said this over and over. I was not claiming Detroit's draft record was no better than Calgary's.

The point was that Detroit's drafting has not been all that great either - compared to the league overall. Since Datsyuk and Lidstrom, they have actually done pretty mediocre - better than Calgary, yes. But pretty mediocre overall.

Why is this difficult for people to comprehend?

I never made any kind of claim that the Flames' draft record holds up against anybody's.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

Because the only way you can accumulate picks is to trade your assets.....

And I am saying the high picks Flames will get form a low placing negates the need to trade the 2-3 decent assets they have. Just use the picks you have.

Also, this team is extremely bad at winning trades. I can only think of 1-2.

Even the trade to get Iggy was a loss if you look at the Cups Joe N won after leaving. What did the Flames get for Theo? Paul Byron and Butler?

No thanks. I would rather see Iggy stay here.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Even the trade to get Iggy was a loss if you look at the Cups Joe N won after leaving. What did the Flames get for Theo? 10 great years of Robyn Regehr, and Paul Byron and Butler?

fyp

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

And I am saying the high picks Flames will get form a low placing negates the need to trade the 2-3 decent assets they have. Just use the picks you have.

Also, this team is extremely bad at winning trades. I can only think of 1-2.

Even the trade to get Iggy was a loss if you look at the Cups Joe N won after leaving. What did the Flames get for Theo? Paul Byron and Butler?

No thanks. I would rather see Iggy stay here.

The problem with keeping Iginla and Kipper is they are good enough to ensure the club stays around 9th to 12th for a few more years meaning the team doesn't get that top three pick that would begin a new era, by keeping them it ensures that the team stay in the wilderness for 8 to 10 years or more rather than possibly limiting it to a 5 or 6 year turnaround

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

And I am saying the high picks Flames will get form a low placing negates the need to trade the 2-3 decent assets they have. Just use the picks you have.

Also, this team is extremely bad at winning trades. I can only think of 1-2.

Even the trade to get Iggy was a loss if you look at the Cups Joe N won after leaving. What did the Flames get for Theo? Paul Byron and Butler?

No thanks. I would rather see Iggy stay here.

So Joe N leaves at the end of the year and the Flames end up with nothing, instaed of Iginla. Yah can't understand why they made that trade, chalk it up as a loss.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

And I am saying the high picks Flames will get form a low placing negates the need to trade the 2-3 decent assets they have. Just use the picks you have.

Also, this team is extremely bad at winning trades. I can only think of 1-2.

Even the trade to get Iggy was a loss if you look at the Cups Joe N won after leaving. What did the Flames get for Theo? Paul Byron and Butler?

No thanks. I would rather see Iggy stay here.

In essense the best two positions to finish from a purely hockey point of veiw would be cup winner and last place, the absoloute worst finish is 9th place, no playoff money or any real chance at it while not getting a decent shot at a franchise player. This is the Flames with its currant roster, just good enough to get nothing out of the season.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

fyp

Good point, same applies for Iggy IMO. Keep him until he retires and be happy for all the years of service.

Gotta sign him though...

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

So Joe N leaves at the end of the year and the Flames end up with nothing, instaed of Iginla. Yah can't understand why they made that trade, chalk it up as a loss.

The argument to get rid of him and others from the 89 team was: he is too expensive and old.

In other words they could have signed him and kept him. They chose not to in a highly speculative trade that netted a future Franchise Player. That is like winning the lottery.

Similar debate on Iggy right now.

With certain players I think you have to just keep guys to the end. If Joe N had stayed here he might be the GM now. I also think the Flames would be a team with some legacy and tradition. Instead Flames are like a 30+ year old expansion team. A low value franchise in the NHL with no tradition apart from three great runs and some dusty banners earned by guys they traded away.

Plus I don't like the odds of Calgary finding another winning lottery ticket. And I really think the mgmt of this team is bad at picking tickets.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

In essense the best two positions to finish from a purely hockey point of veiw would be cup winner and last place, the absoloute worst finish is 9th place, no playoff money or any real chance at it while not getting a decent shot at a franchise player. This is the Flames with its currant roster, just good enough to get nothing out of the season.

Maybe, but they look like a 25-30 position team to me this year.

[Cyclops]

Didn't this team finish 5 points back on the Stanley Cup champs last year? The way the league is set up now it allows almost every team to be able to compete for the cup, this year I could honestly say that I wouldn't be shocked if one of about 25 teams win the cup, it's going to come down to which one is streaking at the right time and who gets the hot goaltending.

The Flames have a very fickle fan base, it shows on here after a loss (rebuild) and after a win (playoff chances), it showed in the 90`s with having season ticket drives in order to keep the team in Calgary...twice. The franchise probably couldn`t withstand a full rebuild as some people want, trade away all of our veterans and have prospects and picks galore, some will pan out, most will not.

How many people thought NJ needed to trade Parise before the trade deadline last year because they didn`t have a shot and they would lose him for nothing...how did they end up doing last year and how are they doing without their 27 year old captain this year....

Calgary doesn`t need to rebuild, they just needed a different approach than to what Sutter brought and I think they are doing just that. Be smarter with contracts (terms and length), scouting and development are big (they have improved) and reward the younger players with an NHL spot (something that Sutter never did). `

Flames have as good of a chance this year to win the cup as the Kings did last year, in my opinion that is a good enough reason to hang onto the players on this team and hope we get hot at the right time.

[Derek Sutton]

^All tru but a couple of things. You don't usually trade your pending free agaents when you are a play off team (NJ). Also the Kinggs were a good team on paper, with a mix of youth and experience, just underpreforming for most of last year untill a coaching change.

Whatever the Flames do, long term success requires a mix of talent, youth and experience, right now they are only leaning on experience.

[nickk382]

Iginla is the least of our problems. Iginla is everything that the Flames represent and I really don't like the idea of everyone always proposing to trade him. It's like one of those moments when a real true player of your team decides to leave himself, abandon the team, for a better one, and then everyone is upset about that. However, it's exactly the other way around.

This is exactly how I feel about Doaner, the team would feel naked without him. I know there is always a better feel in the locker room when you have that one player to look up to that has been in the organization for so damn long.

Kipper on the other hand, is our problem. He will always have a place in my heart for his moments in his career that I imprinted in my memory and will never leave due to his brilliance and effort. We need a goalie, it's tough. We will get through this, boys!

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Didn't this team finish 5 points back on the Stanley Cup champs last year? The way the league is set up now it allows almost every team to be able to compete for the cup, this year I could honestly say that I wouldn't be shocked if one of about 25 teams win the cup, it's going to come down to which one is streaking at the right time and who gets the hot goaltending.

Flames have as good of a chance this year to win the cup as the Kings did last year, in my opinion that is a good enough reason to hang onto the players on this team and hope we get hot at the right time.

Complete garbage.

The Kings have a far different roster make up than the Flames do and far more talent. It isn't even comparable. They were expected to finish near the top of the WC standings last year as well with that roster and significantly underachieved. Flames can't say the same thing.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Complete garbage.

The Kings have a far different roster make up than the Flames do and far more talent. It isn't even comparable. They were expected to finish near the top of the WC standings last year as well with that roster and significantly underachieved. Flames can't say the same thing.

And people were writing them off at Christmas and even after the trade deadline. How about the Devils, did they have a `far different roster make up`than the Flames, because, if anything they were huge over acheivers and managed to go to the cup. I don`t see much difference between NJ and Calgary at all, in fact on paper we are the better team.

Quick played amazing last year in the playoffs, I think Kipper could do the same for us. And it isn`t complete garbage, pretty sure the Flames were only 5 points back.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by nickk382

Iginla is the least of our problems. Iginla is everything that the Flames represent and I really don't like the idea of everyone always proposing to trade him. It's like one of those moments when a real true player of your team decides to leave himself, abandon the team, for a better one, and then everyone is upset about that. However, it's exactly the other way around.

This is exactly how I feel about Doaner, the team would feel naked without him. I know there is always a better feel in the locker room when you have that one player to look up to that has been in the organization for so damn long.

Kipper on the other hand, is our problem. He will always have a place in my heart for his moments in his career that I imprinted in my memory and will never leave due to his brilliance and effort. We need a goalie, it's tough. We will get through this, boys!

Loyalty is only a pay cheque away. Nobody knows what will hppen with Iginla come July 1. Even though real people ar einvolved it is a bussiness, and Featser has to always be looking at ways to improve his team.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

^All tru but a couple of things. You don't usually trade your pending free agaents when you are a play off team (NJ). Also the Kinggs were a good team on paper, with a mix of youth and experience, just underpreforming for most of last year untill a coaching change.

Whatever the Flames do, long term success requires a mix of talent, youth and experience, right now they are only leaning on experience.

Don`t know, I think we can match most teams with skill and the youth is coming along. IMO todays NHL is more about who wants the win as almost every team has similar talent. When the Flames lose I rarely think that the other team is much more talented, it`s more a case of them looking slow and unmotivated. If Hartley can motivate this team then good things will happen.

[Coach]

I think the top-bottom rebuild is in full force and as a poster said earlier, some people won't accept that a rebuild is in effect until both Iginla and Kiprusoff are traded.

The heat coaching staff has been completely remade with s players coach that is well regarded for breeding and helping young players. Many people on here wanted him as a the Flames new head coach. And they are winning.

Scouting was pretty much cleared and guys like Goulet and Wisebrod were brought in to scout youth that know how to play the game before they even get here, and just need help along the path to becoming the athlete they need to be. The last time the Flames had any prospects of note it was Phaneuf and only Phaneuf. We are seeing players come in that are being regarded as the best in their respective leagues with Sven and Gaudreau. Supplemented by talented players like Granlund, Seiloff, Wotherspoon, Jankowski, Reinhardt, Horak, Ramage (I think people forget about him. I think he will be an impressive player). Not to mention goalies galore. And the continued development of Backlund and Brodie.

We have about a 10 year gap in player development when our drafting, scouting, and development were all terrible and we have had the lag effects of that for the past few seasons and right now. But eventually all of these players will grow and be 20-25 and then we will really be able to judge how our rebuild went. There are TWO reasons this team has not been a bottom feeder during their lag and their names are Iginla and Kiprusoff. Every success this team has had in the last ten years is a direct result of their play. Even the good players that came in and out were made better while here because of Iginla, while Kiprusoff held us in many a game we had no business being in. People take for granted the unique privilege we have had to be able to watch these two athletes play. We will not see players like them for many years.

That said. It is time for them to go. I think both can still pull in a pretty good return, and I honestly think Kiprusoffs package will be the more fruitful one. People need to have patience through things like this.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

And people were writing them off at Christmas and even after the trade deadline. How about the Devils, did they have a `far different roster make up`than the Flames, because, if anything they were huge over acheivers and managed to go to the cup. I don`t see much difference between NJ and Calgary at all, in fact on paper we are the better team.

Quick played amazing last year in the playoffs, I think Kipper could do the same for us. And it isn`t complete garbage, pretty sure the Flames were only 5 points back.

The advent of overtime and shoot outs means almost every team is 'only 5 points out', thats the point of fake parity, on paper almost every team is in it, in reality its impossible to make up those 5 points as the guys you are chasing tend to be picking up loser points.
Take tonight, 3 out of 6 games goes to OT, making up 5 points in todays league requires up to 5 wins over the team you are chasing