11 games in...rate the defencemen

[SuperMatt18]

Based on Expectations:

TJ Brodie: A Thought Brodie would grow into a top 4 d-man this season...didn't think it would only take him 5 games to do so. Been a key cog for this team.

Dennis Wideman: B+- Best PP QB the Flames have had for a long time (MacInnis?). Calm and collected and brings an element this defense has missed that last couple seasons.

Marc Giordano: C- Continuing his struggles from last season, and has had a hard time adapting to top pairing competition.

Jay Bouwmeester: B+ This is the Bouwmeester we thought we were getting when we signed him from Florida. Improved defensively and creating offense.

Chris Butler: C- Average...has some really good games and some really bad games.

Cory Sarich: C- Average...his footspeed seems to have regressed again this season. Is the only d-man that provides that physical aspect we need however.

Derek Smith: B - Has had some rough games, but still has only been on the ice for 1 goal against in his seven games this season. Really that is all you can ask for from a bottom pairing d-man.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Against NHL players?

Brodie has been great but he still looks a little weak at times against bigger forwards.

It did include games against the mighty Barons!

[Stay Golden]

TJ Brodie: A-

Dennis Wideman: A+

Marc Giordano: C

Jay Bouwmeester: B+

Chris Butler: F

Cory Sarich: C

Derek Smith: B

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

What does that have to do with it? He is still playing at an A level.

The funny thing is that there is no way Brodie would be at an A if he wasn't paired with Wideman.

Both Brodie and Wideman are playing very well, but one made the all-star team last year and is getting 5 million dollars while the other was supposed to be battling for a d-man spot. The difference is expectations from the start of the year is why I rated Brodie higher.

Wideman is exceeding expectations while Brodie is drastically exceeding expectations

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I actually don't mind your grade, seems pretty good for Wideman. But wanted to ask based on your comment, he's a + player, playing on the 2nd pairing and is currently on pace for 60pts in a full NHL season right now. Early days, but if that continued, what more do you want for your 5.2M?

Nothing more. If he plays like he has for his whole contract then it will be good value.

To earn an A+ rating, shouldn't you be exceeding the value of your contract? I gave Wideman a B+ because he is doing a good job this year, given his pedigree and salary

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So it seems that we have a consensus that Giordano is having his worst season in years.

It makes no sense in that Bouwmeester (like the start of last season) is doing so much better with Gio as his partner.

I was willing to give Butler some slack as Bouwmeester started last season playing better than he did with Regehr.

Have to admit that Bouwmeester is playing better than all expectations that he has established over the last 2 years but he seems to be consistently a partner killer.

Too early to tell. Giordano didn't play during the lockout and he has looked better in the last couple of games. He also ditched the visor he was wearing so maybe there was an injury that was unreported

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by moon

Brodie- A
Bouwmeester- B+
Wideman- C
Smith- C
Sarich- C
Giordano- D
Butler- D

Gio probably has played overall better than Smith and Sarich but he has been so bad and disappointing at times that it is frustrating to watch.

Bouwmeester has had moments where he has looked great but also had more defensive breakdowns and complete misses this year so that holds him back from being an A.

Brodie has been great and outside of a few errors expected from a young guy he is progressing really well. Looks solid in the top 4 even playing with a guy like Wideman which can't be easy.

Man, you continually tried to sell us all that Wideman was a defensive liability before the season even started and even after what he has shown in a Flames uniform you are still slagging him?

Can't be easy playing with a guy like Wideman? Have you watched the Flames play this season? Leads the D with 24 blocked shots, playing 25 minutes a night and only having 4 giveaways on the season, 7 takeaways, 8 points in 11 games.

I know your deal on this site is to be controversial, but give the guy some credit and admit that so far this season he has proved your assessment of him wrong.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

I know your deal on this site is to be controversial, but give the guy some credit and admit that so far this season he has proved your assessment of him wrong.

I don't want this thread to become another overreact to the poster threads which is why I gave my grade as asked and not much more on Wideman.

But my deal is not to be controversial it is to give my opinion. I haven't liked Widemans style for a long time. It is like I changed this opinion once I saw everyone liked him. I have been here for ten years and at best been "controversial" for 3 once the team started struggling and I wanted to see changes. Perhaps if isn't that I just look to be controversial but have an opinion that many here don't agree with.

Either way hopefully people can address the actual grade without the garbage comments on the poster or controversial BS.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by moon

I don't want this thread to become another overreact to the poster threads which is why I gave my grade as asked and not much more on Wideman.

But my deal is not to be controversial it is to give my opinion. I haven't liked Widemans style for a long time. It is like I changed this opinion once I saw everyone liked him. I have been here for ten years and at best been "controversial" for 3 once the team started struggling and I wanted to see changes. Perhaps if isn't that I just look to be controversial but have an opinion that many here don't agree with.

Either way hopefully people can address the actual grade without the garbage comments on the poster or controversial BS.

You gave Sarich & Smith the same grade man.

[Neeper]

Brodie: A
Wideman: A+
Gio: C
Bouwmeester: B
Butler: D
Sarich: C
Smith: C

Wideman has been a rock and has completely changed the dynamic of our team on the blueline. Him and Brodie have just been absolutely fanfrickintastic.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So it seems that we have a consensus that Giordano is having his worst season in years.

It makes no sense in that Bouwmeester (like the start of last season) is doing so much better with Gio as his partner.

I was willing to give Butler some slack as Bouwmeester started last season playing better than he did with Regehr.

Have to admit that Bouwmeester is playing better than all expectations that he has established over the last 2 years but he seems to be consistently a partner killer.

Regehr, maybe. The Bouwmeester-Regehr pairing was simply not as good as the sum of it's parts, even if Regehr was slowing down.

Butler...errh, hard to give you that one. Butler was never touted as much of anything, and then he's all of a sudden playing on the top pairing. If Butler had separated from Bouwmeester and looked decent it would have been a different story but Butler away from Bouwmeester looks like an AHL call up most nights. Would probably be more fair to Bouwmeester to reanalysis history and look at what he had to work with.

Giordano, is a bit more fair. But, there's certain things happening with Giordano that can no way be attributed to Bouwmeester, sans Bouwmeester doing some voodoo with the puck. He's had problems keeping the line, he's had problems whenever the puck gets near his skates, he's slower to react and seems just slower in general (perhaps the last one is because it's in comparison to is partner), his decision making is just off and even his passes seem less crisp. Don't know if it's just a confidence issue, the long off season, not used to being played so much or that he's going up against stronger competitors far more often but I'm not ready to blame Bouwmeester yet.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by moon

I don't want this thread to become another overreact to the poster threads which is why I gave my grade as asked and not much more on Wideman.

But my deal is not to be controversial it is to give my opinion. I haven't liked Widemans style for a long time. It is like I changed this opinion once I saw everyone liked him. I have been here for ten years and at best been "controversial" for 3 once the team started struggling and I wanted to see changes. Perhaps if isn't that I just look to be controversial but have an opinion that many here don't agree with.

Either way hopefully people can address the actual grade without the garbage comments on the poster or controversial BS.

Ok, fine. I don't usually say anything about your posting style and many times agree with the things you post. You gave Wideman a C, then said while grading Brodie, "Looks solid in the top 4 even playing with a guy like Wideman which can't be easy."

Watching the games, how does Wideman make Brodie's job harder than it should be? What is it that you don't like about Wideman's style?

[kirant]

Using C as "meets expectations", B as "doing well", and A as "amazing"

TJ Brodie: B. I like Brodie and hope he continues to develop. He's fast, has good offensive instincts, and is showing he can see the game at a level you want from an offensive D. The biggest concerns are his size, which will hamper his defensive effectiveness, and the occasional questionable pass out of his own end. A few times, him and Wideman have caused a fire drill by trying to do just a little too much.

Dennis Wideman: B+. I bought into the notion that Capitals and Bruins fans sold me that he'd be a disaster defensively. So far, he's proven them wrong. Wideman does not look out of place and has provided so many offensive tools for the Flames that all the mocking of the signing (so far) has been worth it.

Marc Giordano: D. Rough year for Giordano. Hasn't looked the same since the start of last year (October 2012). Getting beat out of corners, doesn't pinch as well or as hard, can't make the nice paces he used to...probably a reasonable #3 defenceman, but is looking out of place as a top pairing player.

Jay Bouwmeester: B+. The Bouwmeester we were all expected has finally showed up to play. He looks poised at even strength and that speed is bringing another dimension to the offensive game. When he hits, he looks even better. Tough to judge his PK work and I can't identify the problem yet.

Chris Butler: D. I can't imagine how, but him on the 3rd pairing has looked worse than him on the 1st. He's making bad decisions, losing physical match ups, and, while fast, can't get anything done after picking up the puck.

Cory Sarich: C. Exactly what you expected out of him...hits hard, looks like Pardy when skating, and handles the puck like a grenade. One of those players you don't mind as a 6/7 swap out depending on what you need more: grit or speed.

Derek Smith: C. Nothing special. Last year set me up to expected a player who looks good against weak competition, but that hasn't shown up yet. Fast enough and has good offensive instincts.

[djsFlames]

Best to Worst:

Dennis Wideman: A (Very Boss.)

Jay Bouwmeester: A- (Boss. Using all his abilities right this time. And hitting!)

TJ Bro-day: B+ (I think he has even greater potential, getting there)

Derek Smith: B- (Steady for stretches, then has these mind fart kind of games out of the blue)

Cory Sarich C (Meh)

Mark Giordano D+ (He is sooooooo much better than this. Thought he was actually dragging down Jbo a bit early on, don't believe this will continue.)

-
-
-

Chris Butler: D- (Has a couple glimpses of solid play, but otherwise has stank it up with dumb decision after dumb decision. Needs to be smarter with outlet passes / getting it out of the zone, for example.)

Anton Babchuk: N/A (Stay pretty up there, boom boom. We might use you soon.)

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I think Wideman and Brodie look so good because of the opposition they see every night, ie. not the opposition's top line. Similarly, I think Gio looks overwhelmed a bit because he's playing in a role he's not used to. With that said, I don't think Gio looks nearly as bad as some posters here make him out to be. My rankings:

Bouwmeester: A
Wideman: A
Brodie: A-
Giordano: B
Smith: B-
Butler: C
Sarich: C-

That's definitely a good point. The comparison between who each defense pair faces is pretty stark. If you look at the top 30 opponents in terms of ice time for Giordano and Bouwmeester you see guys like the Sedins, Duchene, Zetterberg, Toews, Hossa, Hall, Eberle, Thornton, Pavelski, Parise, Marleau, Getzlaf, and Perry.

With Wideman and Brodie, their top opponents are guys like Higgins, Hansen, Weise, Heatley, Setoguchi, Cogliano, Gagner, Clowe, Granlund, Lapierre, and Filppula. They're not completely sheltered as they have gotten some time against guys like Kane, Sharp, and Datsyuk, but the overall quality of competition isn't even comparable to Giordano/Bouwmeester.

There's nothing wrong with them getting that ice time as they should be put in a position to succeed, but the quality of opponents should definitely be taken into account when comparing defensemen on the same team.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

You gave Sarich & Smith the same grade man.

All 3 have met my expectations of what I thought they would be.

I also gave Butler and Gio the same grade but think that Gio has been better but I expect a lot more out of Gio then Butler.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Ok, fine. I don't usually say anything about your posting style and many times agree with the things you post. You gave Wideman a C, then said while grading Brodie, "Looks solid in the top 4 even playing with a guy like Wideman which can't be easy."

Watching the games, how does Wideman make Brodie's job harder than it should be? What is it that you don't like about Wideman's style?

His poor defensive play, decisions with puck outside of offensive zone and lack of positioning without the puck are what I don't like about his game and what Ames him tough to play with.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by moon

His poor defensive play, decisions with puck outside of offensive zone and lack of positioning without the puck are what I don't like about his game and what Ames him tough to play with.

But absolutely none of this is happening in Calgary right now. None, at all. He and Brodie are and have been the best pairing on the team this year.

Its fine you are critical but nothing many/most/the rest of us have seen so far proves any of your points valid.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by moon

His poor defensive play, decisions with puck outside of offensive zone and lack of positioning without the puck are what I don't like about his game and what Ames him tough to play with.

Hmmmm, just want to make sure you know Wideman is the guy that wears a #26 on his back, with those comments it doesn't seem like you are watching the same guy that I am.

His positionial play without the puck has been great and one of the big reasons that he and Brodie have been the best Flames D pairing that I can remember for a long long time. Always support each other, always positioning themselves so they have an out if under pressure.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Hmmmm, just want to make sure you know Wideman is the guy that wears a #26 on his back, with those comments it doesn't seem like you are watching the same guy that I am.

His positionial play without the puck has been great and one of the big reasons that he and Brodie have been the best Flames D pairing that I can remember for a long long time. Always support each other, always positioning themselves so they have an out if under pressure.

Oh I know what number Wideman is. Easy to see him sticking out as clueless in the defensive zone.

But everyone is free to have their own opinions on how guys play.

[Armchair Quarterback]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Best to Worst:

Dennis Wideman: A (Very Boss.)

Jay Bouwmeester: A- (Boss. Using all his abilities right this time. And hitting!)

TJ Bro-day: B+ (I think he has even greater potential, getting there)

Derek Smith: B- (Steady for stretches, then has these mind fart kind of games out of the blue)

Cory Sarich C (Meh)

Mark Giordano D+ (He is sooooooo much better than this. Thought he was actually dragging down Jbo a bit early on, don't believe this will continue.)

-
-
-

Chris Butler: D- (Has a couple glimpses of solid play, but otherwise has stank it up with dumb decision after dumb decision. Needs to be smarter with outlet passes / getting it out of the zone, for example.)

Anton Babchuk: N/A (Stay pretty up there, boom boom. We might use you soon.)

This.

I have to say having been a big critic of Bouwmeester last season, he really seems to have improved and stepped it up so far. Not sure if it's coaching or a change in attitude but his offense has gotten way more aggressive (good goal last night) and way better puck movement compared to last year. He still needs to step up his physical game, though.

Gio has been inconsistent and I think he needs to step up the gritty style of play (blocked shots, hitting, etc.) that we saw last year.

Wideman was a huge addition to the lineup.

[dammage79]

I can fully understand where Wideman's previous play on other teams could form your opinion of him. His playoff appearance last year was down right terrible. And the year before that he was not that good either. So maybe, as was the case with Bouwmeester it was the coaching and philosophy of play that hampered him more than anything. Because he's been relaxed and calm and cool as a cucumber here. Maybe he just likes it here more than most. Who knows. But right now his play is spot on.