Use of Native American Imagery in Sports

[GirlySports]

There a big lawsuit right now over the name Fighting Sioux. NCAA has banned it but North Dakota wants to keep it.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Another example is the pizza shop in Inglewood, Without Papers (or WOP). It was named by the owner as a jab at the owner of Pulcinella, in Kensington. The owner in Pucinella has signed papers that he is certified to make authentic Napolitana pizza. The owner of WOP doesn't, but still makes the same pizza. He named the shop as a joke, but the power of the word still makes it a ethnic slur.

The interesting thing about that is it's also a shot at the culinary pretension of being certified to make a frickin' pizza, and that I support 100%.

[shutout]

Far too many people forcing their opinions on others, and expecting things to change because they want them to. Vocal minorities (opinions) are trying to decide what should be and should not be acceptable. Let the majority decide and then changes will be made.

If the majority of the people were against the Redskins then they should boycott all Redskins merchandise. Stop going to the games. Stop reporting their team in the papers and on TV. If fans stopped going and supporting the team because of the name, the owner would change the name.

Why should anybody have to change their beliefs to conform to special interest groups. If the Native American's want to have the name changed then they should be proactive and purchase the team and then they are free to make all the changes that they want. Until then, why should the owner have to change his opinions or anything about the franchise he owns.

Money talks. Its the only thing that people listen to. Until that money makes a statement on racism in sports culture things are not going to change. Nor should they have to.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by shutout

Far too many people forcing their opinions on others, and expecting things to change because they want them to. Vocal minorities (opinions) are trying to decide what should be and should not be acceptable. Let the majority decide and then changes will be made.

If the majority of the people were against the Redskins then they should boycott all Redskins merchandise. Stop going to the games. Stop reporting their team in the papers and on TV. If fans stopped going and supporting the team because of the name, the owner would change the name.

Why should anybody have to change their beliefs to conform to special interest groups. If the Native American's want to have the name changed then they should be proactive and purchase the team and then they are free to make all the changes that they want. Until then, why should the owner have to change his opinions or anything about the franchise he owns.

Money talks. Its the only thing that people listen to. Until that money makes a statement on racism in sports culture things are not going to change. Nor should they have to.

Ha, so the name Detroit N___ers is okay if a group of white supremacists by the team and decide they want to call it that? We're heading into new territory of stupidity now.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by shutout

Far too many people forcing their opinions on others, and expecting things to change because they want them to. Vocal minorities (opinions) are trying to decide what should be and should not be acceptable. Let the majority decide and then changes will be made.

If the majority of the people were against the Redskins then they should boycott all Redskins merchandise. Stop going to the games. Stop reporting their team in the papers and on TV. If fans stopped going and supporting the team because of the name, the owner would change the name.

Why should anybody have to change their beliefs to conform to special interest groups. If the Native American's want to have the name changed then they should be proactive and purchase the team and then they are free to make all the changes that they want. Until then, why should the owner have to change his opinions or anything about the franchise he owns.

Money talks. Its the only thing that people listen to. Until that money makes a statement on racism in sports culture things are not going to change. Nor should they have to.

Thankfully it is an extreme minority that think that minority rights and issues should be dealt with in such an egalitarian way.

Although point taken, the Natives should just start a chain of stores named "Dan Snyder kills Jews, beats women and hates babies". Buy the domain name www.dansnyder.com and fill it with whatever the heck they want to fill it up with. If Dan Snyder has a problem with this he should just buy the store and website. If the Natives do not want to sell the store, Dan Snyder should shut up. Money talks and if his money is not good enough to buy the stores, he should just live with the name. There is nothing else that people should listen to other than money in that situation.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by valo403

Ha, so the name Detroit N___ers is okay if a group of white supremacists by the team and decide they want to call it that? We're heading into new territory of stupidity now.

Niners? Already a pro team with that name...

[valo403]

Originally Posted by nickerjones

Niners? Already a pro team with that name...

Ha, well done.

[thefoss1957]

It is true that my Beloved Blackhawks (originally Black Hawks) were named for a WWI military unit, that had adopted it's name from a defeated Sac and Fox tribal member, who was viewed as a brave war leader. So, indirectly, the team is named, not for a people or a race, but for a single historical figure, Ma-ka-tai-me-she-kia-kiak (Be a large black hawk).

Through the years, I had read many opinions from Sac and Fox members that are glad that the team name keeps some of their history alive.

The 'Hawks themselves have, through the years, made an effort to reach out to the peoples from whom the team name derived...

From a Blackhawks' Charity page: http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=74904

[Armchair Quarterback]

Originally Posted by Super Nintendo Chalmers

I play hockey with a bunch of transplanted Quebecers. Most of them wear Habs colours and they all refer to the Canadiens as the Habs. Nothing has ever happened to indicate to me that habitants might be an insult. Not that I doubt you. It's just never come up and it never occurred to me.

For sure, people know that habs refers to "habitants" in the case of the Montreal Canadiens...but it can also be used as an insult. If you used it as an insult towards a Quebecer it would sort of be the equivalent to someone calling us a hick or redneck because we're Western Canadians. Probably never comes up, true.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

An unexpected benefit from discussing this issue (for the First Nations Peoples) is that their history and grievances are brought into mainstream media for discussion.

The problem isn't the names/logos per se as much as:
-Ignorance of the abuse these people suffered
-Ignorance of the baggage associated with the names and their history
-People thinking it doesn't matter because they never thought of their sports teams being branded with racist icons (and since I'd wager that most people in this discussion are white they have little if any first hand experience of racist icons and attitudes).

I wonder if the Washington Redskins could do some ju juitsu on their name to go from a derogatory name to a name representing pan-Aboriginal unity and power?

[Puppet Guy]

this is more aimed at schools, but relevant here:

http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/i..._river_default

AUBURN, MI – The Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe wouldn't mind seeing some changes at Bay City Western High School.
But a change in mascot is not one of them.
"Something like the Western Warriors is a very general, straight-forward depiction of our people," said Frank Cloutier, public relations director for the Mount Pleasant-based tribe. "It looks at us as very proud and strong-willed people.
"I don't see anything wrong with Western using it. They are good Warriors."

While Cloutier said the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe encourages the use of appropriate Indian imagery, it would prefer the schools take their affiliation with American Indians further than that. He said schools that identify themselves with American Indians through a mascot should also offer classes on American Indian culture.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There a big lawsuit right now over the name Fighting Sioux. NCAA has banned it but North Dakota wants to keep it.

As a member of the Sioux Valley Nation I always felt honoured by this name but I know I'm in the minority there.

[Itse]

Hmm, late to the discussion, but funnily enough I kind of agree with Mikey here. Is this a first?

People have always been fascinated by warriors, and often especially so by exotic warriors. That is IMO the most accurate historical background of native American symbolism in sportswear in most cases.

And maybe it's just me, but for me the whole name-changing business stinks of whitewashing history and trying to sweep it under the rug. Own your sins, don't try to hide them.

So basicly IMO there's nothing wrong with a team named "Indians" as such, and the history of it is kind of funny really. Personally I connect it more to the history of ignorance and stupidity by whites anyway.

However, the Indians really should change that logo, because that I think is offensive without question.

"Redskins" is a borderline name for me, and I think conducting a true poll about it with some relevant native communities (or their representatives or what ever is feasible) would be the right way to go.

It's like if I sleep with your wife, it's only cheating if nobody asks you. Sorry, first example that came to mind But speaking more generally, asking is a way of giving ownership.

The Blackhawks-name I see nothing wrong with. I think people are really reaching in their claims that there is some kind of a relevant oppressive undertone to it. I think it's rather clear that the name is related to badassery and fighting hard, not losing and getting slaughtered and humiliated.

I'd also like to point this out: associations can change over time. Just because native Americans were essentially considered subhuman in the past by many doesn't mean that every symbol from that age needs to carry that load forever. I believe it's more effective to fight the negative stereotypes than the symbols of those stereotypes. The stereotypes will never go away, and there will always be some symbols attached to them no matter what you do. You can only do your best to not make those stereotypes offensive. ("Wrong" is not offensive in itself. And every stereotype ever is wrong in some sense.)

Also, you have to be kidding me if you're trying to claim that the Blue Jackets are not a civil war themed team.

[HOOT]

Should they start renaming iffy city names too?

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'd also like to point this out: associations can change over time. Just because native Americans were essentially considered subhuman in the past by many doesn't mean that every symbol from that age needs to carry that load forever. I believe it's more effective to fight the negative stereotypes than the symbols of those stereotypes. The stereotypes will never go away, and there will always be some symbols attached to them no matter what you do. You can only do your best to not make those stereotypes offensive. ("Wrong" is not offensive in itself. And every stereotype ever is wrong in some sense.)

Also, you have to be kidding me if you're trying to claim that the Blue Jackets are not a civil war themed team.

IIRC correctly the Flames ... originally from Atlanta were named in homage of a civil war event ... ( The burning of Atlanta by General Sherman ( I think it was Sherman, I could be wrong)).

[ramizle]

I tend to agree that the use of native imagery in sports can be quite offensive. They always show Big Chief at the dome. Always! And they are so darn expensive but I buy them because Big Chief is yummy.

[YYC in LAX]

The New Jersey Devils are extremely insensitive to worshipers of Satan and should definitely change their name.

Slippery slope topic.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

The New Jersey Devils are extremely insensitive to worshipers of Satan and should definitely change their name.

Slippery slope topic.

It would be slippery slope if there were actually Devils in the world. The Redskins name is a racial slur describing real people.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

The New Jersey Devils are extremely insensitive to worshipers of Satan and should definitely change their name.

Slippery slope topic.

I'm going to repost this. As I feel it helps explain why that's incorrect.

Originally Posted by Cole436

Think about it in terms of what the symbol represents. Does the symbol invoke an idea of stereotyping and dominance?

Names such as "Chiefs" or "Natives" (Indians as well, that extent) invoke only imagery of the ethnic group themselves. It's not trying to sell an ideology with it.

An example would be the difference between calling a team "The Romans" and "The Guido's". "Romans" would be nothing more than calling back to a historical mythology. "Guido's" send a racist message about the certain group.

Does that clear that issue?

[stignasty]

I love this webpage, btw.
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope