While Kipper is out, The Who Starts Next Game Thread

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by nik-

What was the desired effect? Overwhelming support for an unnecessary move?

Um, maybe read the paragraph above? Not to mention the rest of my posts in this thread that never once say the move SHOULD be made for Saturday.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

...People forget that Kipper was was nervous and giving up rebounds his first few starts in Calgary.

That is sure not how I remember it. There is a huge difference between Leland Irving's fortunate situation right now, and when Miikka Kiprusoff started his first few games for the Calgary Flames. Most notably, unlike Irving, Kiprusoff had already played almost 50 NHL games, and had even won a few playoff starts when he arrived here. He was not adjusting to the NHL, and he hadn't played an AHL game in over two years. Furthermore, from the first game he played in Calgary and on through the remainder of the season, he was spectacular.

I get that you are trying to temper expectations and curb unnecessary criticism, but this is revisionist history at its finest.

[Trojan97]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

Um, maybe read the paragraph above? Not to mention the rest of my posts in this thread that never once say the move SHOULD be made for Saturday.

Stop being a suck. You made a thread where everyone disagreed with your stance. It happens to the best of us. Let it be.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is sure not how I remember it. There is a huge difference between Leland Irving's fortunate situation right now, and when Miikka Kiprusoff started his first few games for the Calgary Flames. Most notably, unlike Irving, Kiprusoff had already played almost 50 NHL games, and had even won a few playoff starts when he arrived here. He was not adjusting to the NHL, and he hadn't played an AHL game in over two years. Furthermore, from the first game he played in Calgary and on through the remainder of the season, he was spectacular.

I get that you are trying to temper expectations and curb unnecessary criticism, but this is revisionist history at its finest.

He might mean SJ, Kiprusoff couldn't stop a beach ball with them.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by Trojan97

Stop being a suck. You made a thread where everyone disagreed with your stance. It happens to the best of us. Let it be.

Seems pretty clear that is the case. All good.

I don't think being attacked for bringing it up is fair though. I don't see how it's not a fair question. They're both unproven goalies.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mike Vernon

Irving to start then after he gets lit up by not Columbus you pull him and let Taylor play.

I hope it doesn't go down that way but he didn't play that great tonight and I would expect the Canucks to play a much more offensive game Saturday.

The Canucks are not exactly overwhelming teams with their offence right now. They have actually been pretty average in scoring through 10 games, and currently rank 18th in the League. I honestly have not watched them at all this season, but they just don't seem as intimidating this year as they have in the past three.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

He might mean SJ, Kiprusoff couldn't stop a beach ball with them.

Even that is not entirely true. Kiprusoff played quite well in his first several NHL games, and was actually pretty impressive in his first playoff appearance in his rookie season. In his second year with the Sharks he played in 1/4 of the games, and played well enough to win the starting role for the next year. It was in his third year—and first as a starter—that he really struggled, for whatever reason; he lost his position to rookie Vesa Toskala, and the following year was traded to the Calgary Flames for a 2nd round pick where he was immediately brilliant. The rest is history.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by VANFLAMESFAN

Seems pretty clear that is the case. All good.

I don't think being attacked for bringing it up is fair though. I don't see how it's not a fair question. They're both unproven goalies.

Irving starts, and this is not in any sensible way a matter of debate.

I don't know how you can honestly characterise the overwhelming response in this thread as an "attack". Honestly, it was a pretty ridiculous question, and people have in kind treated it as such—the reaction is borne mostly of incredulity. You really shouldn't take anything personally from the strong counter opinions here, because when any of us start silly threads, we will can always count on our peer-posters to ensure that we know about it.

[Psytic]

I didn't get to watch the game but the highlights on the goals against didn't look to flattering for Irving nor his sv pct. If Taylor has played better all year I don't think i'd be opposed to giving him a few games. I know Irving is the Prospect that has been being groomed for years but Taylor is 26 and Irving is 24 so really they aren't that far apart in age and you could still consider Taylor a prospect. He hasn't historically had better stats than Irving but maybe something has clicked this year and last in Abbotsford who knows. Why not give him a shot. If both these guys can take the ball and run with it then it puts the Flames in an even better position.

[Trailer Fire]

HalifaxDrunk.

[Bigfeet24]

only saw the 10min highlights. However, as much as i think Irving could have done better last night he gave the team the opportunity to win, which they did. I'm sure he'll improve game by game. Kipper hadn't exactly been flying the first few games he had this season..

[gargamel]

As long as we're getting wins and Kipper isn't ready to return, Irving will get the next 4 starts regardless of how he's playing. If we lose a game or two, I'm sure the coaches will be evaluating his play, but I think Irving will still be the starter unless he's been really bad.

If Kipper is out for more than 10 days, I think Taylor will get a chance to play in one of our back-to-back games in Dallas and Phoenix next weekend.

[thymebalm]

I'm one of those guys from Vancouver who is a flames fan so I happen to follow the Heat pretty darn closely.

Anyone in the Heat organization, or who watches regularly will tell you that Irving is a workhorse, and has put up some good stretches, but Taylor has been the better goalie since he arrived in Abby.

There could be a lot of reasons why Taylor didn't have a contract until now, like the fact that they already had 7 goalies in the system (Kiprusoff, Karlsson, Ramo, Irving, Brossoit, Gillies, Ortio) and likely figured that they'd be giving a contract to Ramo, Brossoit or Gillies by the next free agency period. That though Taylor may be better than Irving, they planned on having Kiprusoff just play all the dates anyway this season. It could be because they have their fingers crossed that Irving is still going to grow into that potential that they saw when he was drafted in the first round, after all, goalies can take longer to mature and develop. It could be because they wanted those contract spots to go after college free agents that they valued more than added strength in backup goaltending.

I'm a bigger fan of Taylor than Irving. I think that up until the lockout ended, Taylor was the better goalie. Maybe Irving has grown under the guidance of Malarchuck and the heavy workload of being an NHL backup. Maybe today Irving is better today than he was with the Heat.

Even still, though I appreciate the sentiment of the OP, the starter's job is Irving's to lose. If he continues to win hockey games, he should continue to play. I read a tweet before the last game where someone said they weren't worried because they think Irving plays better in the NHL than in the AHL...I'd say that's a bit of an anomaly.. but hey, maybe it's true.

I'm dying to see Taylor get a start in the NHL, I think it's such a great story on how hard he's worked to elevate through the professional rungs of hockey. But it's still not quite his turn. And he may not even get his turn this time around. Irving could win the next two games and Kipper could be ready to play...

5 years ago Taylor got to play one period of NHL hockey, and he went .80sv%. This time he may only get to open the gate. If he does gets to play, he will definitely do better than last time.

[Icon]

I think Irving's in on Sat. I'd play Taylor Monday.

[TheGrimm]

As someone who hasn't had the opportunity to watch many Abbotsford games, I am curious to see what Taylor brings to the games.. I would like to see him get a start but I am assuming that Saturday isn't exactly the best game for that.

I too, wasn't a huge fan of Irvings game yesterday, but I am trying to give him a bit of time to settle into the role before I judge his body of work. The fact that he played pretty poorly yesterday and we still scraped out a win is just gravy.

[Coach]

Leland Irving is a good goaltender.

He didn't look as good last night as he has in past games, but maybe we can cut the guy some slack as he hasnt played much of anything in the last year. With the PTO in Abby and playing behind one of the best goalies ever, he showed a little rust. But everytime I've watched Irivng play hes made at least a few saves that he had no business making. He'll be fine.

[VANFLAMESFAN]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Irving starts, and this is not in any sensible way a matter of debate.

I don't know how you can honestly characterise the overwhelming response in this thread as an "attack". Honestly, it was a pretty ridiculous question, and people have in kind treated it as such—the reaction is borne mostly of incredulity. You really shouldn't take anything personally from the strong counter opinions here, because when any of us start silly threads, we will can always count on our peer-posters to ensure that we know about it.

I never intended it to be a thread for Saturday's game only. It came out that way. I just thought it could be a thread that could be re-visited if something bad happens or when the starting role for the next game is more in question.

I'll say I am guilty of bad timing given I started it an hour after the game, but I didn't think I'd be in the vast minority like I am. I don't think Taylor should start Saturday, but I personally don't believe it's a slam dunk choice for Leland given he looked a little nervous early on yesterday. But he did get better as the game went on and settled in okay.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The Canucks are not exactly overwhelming teams with their offence right now. They have actually been pretty average in scoring through 10 games, and currently rank 18th in the League. I honestly have not watched them at all this season, but they just don't seem as intimidating this year as they have in the past three.

I've watched all their games and you're right - they definitely don't look as strong as before. They are missing Kesler which has a lot to do with it, but I think the other factor is that teams around them have gotten a lot better, and essentially improved more than the Canucks have.

The one thing that they have going this year for them is extremely strong goaltending - both Luongo and Schneider have looked great.

Sedins are looking very average so far and it's mostly their supporting cast (and goalies) who are carrying the team to their good record so far.

[MyFlamesFirst]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I'm one of those guys from Vancouver who is a flames fan so I happen to follow the Heat pretty darn closely.

Anyone in the Heat organization, or who watches regularly will tell you that Irving is a workhorse, and has put up some good stretches, but Taylor has been the better goalie since he arrived in Abby.

There could be a lot of reasons why Taylor didn't have a contract until now, like the fact that they already had 7 goalies in the system (Kiprusoff, Karlsson, Ramo, Irving, Brossoit, Gillies, Ortio) and likely figured that they'd be giving a contract to Ramo, Brossoit or Gillies by the next free agency period. That though Taylor may be better than Irving, they planned on having Kiprusoff just play all the dates anyway this season. It could be because they have their fingers crossed that Irving is still going to grow into that potential that they saw when he was drafted in the first round, after all, goalies can take longer to mature and develop. It could be because they wanted those contract spots to go after college free agents that they valued more than added strength in backup goaltending.

I'm a bigger fan of Taylor than Irving. I think that up until the lockout ended, Taylor was the better goalie. Maybe Irving has grown under the guidance of Malarchuck and the heavy workload of being an NHL backup. Maybe today Irving is better today than he was with the Heat.

Even still, though I appreciate the sentiment of the OP, the starter's job is Irving's to lose. If he continues to win hockey games, he should continue to play. I read a tweet before the last game where someone said they weren't worried because they think Irving plays better in the NHL than in the AHL...I'd say that's a bit of an anomaly.. but hey, maybe it's true.

I'm dying to see Taylor get a start in the NHL, I think it's such a great story on how hard he's worked to elevate through the professional rungs of hockey. But it's still not quite his turn. And he may not even get his turn this time around. Irving could win the next two games and Kipper could be ready to play...

5 years ago Taylor got to play one period of NHL hockey, and he went .80sv%. This time he may only get to open the gate. If he does gets to play, he will definitely do better than last time.

Great post. Agree completely. I think Taylors mental game is much stronger now listening to some interviews and I think he has worked hard enough to earn a shot at playing a game or two at the NHL level, especially is Irving is looking shaky. Irving has first priority but I don't think its fair to let him run with it if hes playing poorly, especially when Taylor is actually a pretty quality goaltender.

[MyFlamesFirst]

Also: If I was Hartley I would make a phone call to Troy Ward. Ask him about the two goaltenders and see what his opinion was. After-all, it is clear that Ward had much more confidence in Taylor this year then Irving.