Fighting to not attend Catholic classes at Catholic school - Ontario

[MarchHare]

Sure, but that is a separate issue from the question "why are religious schools still publicly funded" and the answer "because it is constitutionally protected".

That answer is begging the question, though.

The real question we should be asking is this:

Why is public funding for religious schools still constitutionally protected when the original reason for this protection is no longer relevant in 2013?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

That answer is begging the question, though.

The real question we should be asking is this:

Why is public funding for religious schools still constitutionally protected when the original reason for this protection is no longer relevant in 2013?

National unity isn't relevant in 2013?

The Catholic/public school debate is very much just an issue of the overall French and English debate in Canada.

Maybe it's true that Francophones in Manitoba, Sask. , and Alberta do not have the clout they did back then, but I am sure Francophones in Ontario and New Brunswick would be a little put off - not to mention Quebec.

Catholicism is as much a cultural institution as it is a religious one.

[MarchHare]

National unity isn't relevant in 2013?

Back in 1867, schools were run by churches, not the government. Parents in Quebec, which at the time was predominantly Catholic, did not want their children educated by Protestants. Accordingly, in order to get Quebec to join Confederation, the right to a Catholic education was granted constitutional protection. Obviously that is no longer relevant today because public education is the domain of the government, not the church.

but I am sure Francophones in Ontario and New Brunswick would be a little put off - not to mention Quebec.

I can't speak for Ontario, but New Brunswick has not granted public funding to religious schools (Catholic or otherwise) for decades, and Quebec is the most secular province in all of Canada.

[Calgaryflamesgirl34]

I might be confused but don't you choose which school board you pay your taxes to? I know during local elections you have ballots that are based on which school board you pay for to allow you to vote for relevant school board directors or whatever...so how does that mean the public is paying for the schools? Isn't it technically a choice so if you don't believe in the catholic school system you pay the public?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Calgaryflamesgirl34

I might be confused but don't you choose which school board you pay your taxes to? I know during local elections you have ballots that are based on which school board you pay for to allow you to vote for relevant school board directors or whatever...so how does that mean the public is paying for the schools? Isn't it technically a choice so if you don't believe in the catholic school system you pay the public?

In Ontario, Catholic schools are allocated one third of the province's education budget despite only 23% of the population choosing to direct their taxes to the separate school board. In effect, all citizens are funding the Catholic schools whether they want to or not.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Back in 1867, schools were run by churches, not the government. Parents in Quebec, which at the time was predominantly Catholic, did not want their children educated by Protestants. Accordingly, in order to get Quebec to join Confederation, the right to a Catholic education was granted constitutional protection. Obviously that is no longer relevant today because public education is the domain of the government, not the church.



I can't speak for Ontario, but New Brunswick has not granted public funding to religious schools (Catholic or otherwise) for decades, and Quebec is the most secular province in all of Canada.

Like I said, it's a cultural instituation as much as it is ralgious (maybe even more so). You'd be surprised how many secular Catholics there are in the world.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

This part of the article sums it up for me:

If non-Catholics are paying for it through taxes, then non-Catholics get to attend.

Doesn't that mean as catholics are paying for 'non catholic schools they get to demand a few nuns and a prayer service in the morning for all?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Doesn't that mean as catholics are paying for 'non catholic schools they get to demand a few nuns and a prayer service in the morning for all?

As MarchHare pointed out, non-Catholics are subsidizing the Catholic schools:

Originally Posted by MarchHare

In Ontario, Catholic schools are allocated one third of the province's education budget despite only 23% of the population choosing to direct their taxes to the separate school board. In effect, all citizens are funding the Catholic schools whether they want to or not.

I just believe that a publicly funded school should be, well, public and secular. If somebody wants something in addition to a standard, non-religious curriculum, they have complete freedom to satisfy those needs elsewhere. Or they also have the freedom to roll them into one through a private religious school.

In this case, the student has the right to opt out of the religious components. I would argue that he also has the right to sit in the library because his parents' tax dollars are helping to pay for it.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

In Ontario, Catholic schools are allocated one third of the province's education budget despite only 23% of the population choosing to direct their taxes to the separate school board. In effect, all citizens are funding the Catholic schools whether they want to or not.

If the question defaulted to Catholic instead of Public how much % of funding would they receive.

23% means that 23% of the population made the choice not to leave it blank or ignore it.

I wonder if it was flipped if 77% of people would choose public.

Ive always just left mine blank because I dont have any kids. I might start actually checking a box for 2013 just to see.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

If the question defaulted to Catholic instead of Public how much % of funding would they receive.

23% means that 23% of the population made the choice not to leave it blank or ignore it.

I wonder if it was flipped if 77% of people would choose public.

Ive always just left mine blank because I dont have any kids. I might start actually checking a box for 2013 just to see.

If my understanding is correct, as I've read along, the Catholic schools in Ontario get that funding, period, and it's not based on whether or not the population chooses to direct their tax monies towards the separate school system or the public system, like we do here in Alberta. I'm not sure they even get a chance to choose in Ontario. Or maybe I've understood it wrong.....

We get a chance once a year to choose which system to direct our tax money to.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Minnie

If my understanding is correct, as I've read along, the Catholic schools in Ontario get that funding, period, and it's not based on whether or not the population chooses to direct their tax monies towards the separate school system or the public system, like we do here in Alberta. I'm not sure they even get a chance to choose in Ontario. Or maybe I've understood it wrong.....

We get a chance once a year to choose which system to direct our tax money to.

You do get to choose in Alberta, but the schools are not funded mainly by property taxes. The majority of funding for education here comes from the provincial government and the schools are allotted a certain amount per student, so where your property taxes are allocated is pretty much a moot point. The Government of Alberta tops up any shortfall a school would have if it didn't get its "fair share" of property taxes. All students (including those in private schools and home-schooled) are funded to a certain extent by the Alberta government, although the public and catholic schools get more per student than the private schools do.

[seattleflamer]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Back in 1867, schools were run by churches, not the government. Parents in Quebec, which at the time was predominantly Catholic, did not want their children educated by Protestants. Accordingly, in order to get Quebec to join Confederation, the right to a Catholic education was granted constitutional protection. Obviously that is no longer relevant today because public education is the domain of the government, not the church.

Whether run by church or state, the same constitutional provision that protects Catholic (French speaking minorities education) rights in the rest of Canada also protects anglophones' right to education in English in Quebec where many of those students aren't from a Protestant denomination.

It was (is) about protecting minority rights to their language and religion for the founding cultures. However, funding and therefore access in each province is all over the map as you noted. Alberta is very generous to the Catholic minority.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It's kind of in the constitution.

What constitution? You know Canada does not have a constitution, right?

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

What constitution? You know Canada does not have a constitution, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

What constitution? You know Canada does not have a constitution, right?

Forgive me if that is supposed to be sarcasm. My detector might be off a little...

But of course Canada has "a constitution". We just don't call it The Constitution (TM) like the U.S. does (which I don't know why, but it kind of rubs me the wrong way when I hear it like that - as if they are the only country with one, but I digress...).


Wikpedia source, but I'm sure most of the information is independently verifiable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Act,_1867

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

What constitution? You know Canada does not have a constitution, right?

Hmmm...

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Forgive me if that is supposed to be sarcasm. My detector might be off a little...

But of course Canada has "a constitution". We just don't call it The Constitution (TM) like the U.S. does (which I don't know why, but it kind of rubs me the wrong way when I hear it like that - as if they are the only country with one, but I digress...).


Wikpedia source, but I'm sure most of the information is independently verifiable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_Act,_1867

It was a half joke, just because its technically not a single document. But anyway carry on....

[Rocky Raccoon]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

The exemption was included as a condition of being funded by taxpayers. A Catholic school that is being publicly funded is, in my opinion, a public school with a cross on the wall. The exemption is a fair compromise that allows children of all taxpayers to attend, but not be served their daily dose of religion on a publicly funded platter.

An alternate solution is to refuse public funding and become a private school.

By the same token, public schools are funded by Catholic tax payers and by the same logic as above, a Catholic student should be able to go to a public school and make an application for the school to provide him/her with a daily dose of religion.

[GGG]

In Alberta the government funds charter schools the same amount as the public and catholic system. The condition basically being they provide a unique form of education and that they dont charge tuition and meet Albertas curiculim. So isnt the Catholic system just one big charter school? And the unique component of it is religious based. So this is like person going to an arts focused charter and then trying to get out of arts class.

[Vox]

Originally Posted by seattleflamer

Whether run by church or state, the same constitutional provision that protects Catholic (French speaking minorities education) rights in the rest of Canada also protects anglophones' right to education in English in Quebec where many of those students aren't from a Protestant denomination.

It was (is) about protecting minority rights to their language and religion for the founding cultures. However, funding and therefore access in each province is all over the map as you noted. Alberta is very generous to the Catholic minority.

In what regard? If people choose where their dollars are allocated, isn't the public making the decision of what gets funded?