Canada seeking to replace CF-18 fighter fleet

[Bigtime]

I think the choice is clear:



Used RAF Nimrods with Sidewinder missile hardpoints. Nobody is going to mess with something so metal.

[dammage79]

Lockheed/Martin aren't stupid. I am more than certain during the development of the aircraft they are/will make this fully NATO compliant. Too risky of a venture to completely change the game and have one jet with a totally different weapons cache, fuel administration system along with other differences. But does that make it an even more expensive plane to purchase? Not sure, especially if potential buyers think that should be a primary requirement of an aircraft.

I do like the argument about Stealth capability though. More of a marketing gimmick than an actual application. Especially when it comes to the new Quantum Radar systems being developed. Is there any info on how to make a plane stealth to this new technology?

If not, then I would contend that having stealth capability is a rather overvalued qualification for a purchase of a fighter aircraft.

In which case having a faster, more maneuverable aircraft would trump stealth tech.. Until it gets completely star trek with full on cloaking systems that can eliminate heat signatures, stealth is still in its infancy. Maybe an uneducated opinion but one that makes sense to me.

[Zulu29]

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/...hter-aircraft/

I know building our own planes has been discussed before but this is an interesting article.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think its an over romanticized article. Its not like we have the facilities, the secondary manufacturing and the workforce to build our own fighter jets right now, Bombardier would have to open up a whole secondary divisions and build the facilities to do this.

The writer forgot the whole Iltis Jeep boondoogle, when the Germans offered to manufacture them for us for about $25,000 a pop, but Chretien insisted on it being build by Bombardier since he had families working there and we ended up paying 3x as much per vehicle.

[nik-]

That's the same dude who was saying we should buy the Gripen last week.

[Zulu29]

Yeah apparently he thinks we should buy them and build them ourselves. CC what ever happened to Canadair? They made the tutor and CF-5 right?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think its an over romanticized article. Its not like we have the facilities, the secondary manufacturing and the workforce to build our own fighter jets right now, Bombardier would have to open up a whole secondary divisions and build the facilities to do this.

The writer forgot the whole Iltis Jeep boondoogle, when the Germans offered to manufacture them for us for about $25,000 a pop, but Chretien insisted on it being build by Bombardier since he had families working there and we ended up paying 3x as much per vehicle.

Not sure I trust bombardier with jet fighters, after all their experiance with aerospace is fairly limited, thus far they have only had to bribe in Quebec and Ontario, I seriously doubt they have the skills to bribe and corrupt on the international stage with the big boys.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Yeah apparently he thinks we should buy them and build them ourselves. CC what ever happened to Canadair? They made the tutor and CF-5 right?

It was absorbed by Bombardier after the government sold it.

They did license and build the CF-5 and the tutor.

The CF-5 was an interest plane that was really not well suited to any role it was made to be cheap had poor sensors and fire control didn't carry a very good load.

But it was a pilots dream, but overmatched by nearly every other pane at the time

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Not sure I trust bombardier with jet fighters, after all their experiance with aerospace is fairly limited, thus far they have only had to bribe in Quebec and Ontario, I seriously doubt they have the skills to bribe and corrupt on the international stage with the big boys.

Yeah, they're not the right manufacturer and not all that trustworthy.

If we were going to manufacture a fighter you would almost need a new entity, you would also need to hire the expertise from pretty much out of the country as you want experienced managers and engineers that have worked in the fighter industry. We also don't have the secondary industry needed to support fighter manufacture so we would end up buying parts etc internationally.

Its just a bad idea. Right now our primary at home defense contractors are naval or off shoots of American companies for ground force platforms.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Not sure I trust bombardier with jet fighters, after all their experiance with aerospace is fairly limited, thus far they have only had to bribe in Quebec and Ontario, I seriously doubt they have the skills to bribe and corrupt on the international stage with the big boys.

I would say bombardier's aerospace experience is far from limited, they've been building commercial jets for decades including the challenger 600 series (circa 1970), CRJ100-200 (circa 1990) and the CRJ700, 900,100 series (circa 2000) currently being used by Air Canada, Delta airlines, etc for over over 4 decades. Though they don't have any experience building fighters, but neither did a few other companies who did the same thing when licensing fighter designs in other countries. Japanese Mitsubishi heavy industry with the F-2 and Chinese, Polish aerospace industry licensing Sukhoi and Mig designs. Heck Canada licenses the F-104 design from the US back in the day.

EDIT: It looks like Bombardier acquired Canadair which built the CF-104s for Canada. Guess they do have experience building fighters after all, save for it being a few decades out of date.

[CaptainCrunch]

Decades out of date and most of those skilled people were snateched up by the U.S. aerospace industry and major fighter manufacturers.

Building a jet liner is a far different process then building fighters.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Decades out of date and most of those skilled people were snateched up by the U.S. aerospace industry and major fighter manufacturers.

Building a jet liner is a far different process then building fighters.

True, but at least they wouldn't be starting from scratch is the main thing.

[Zulu29]

Hypothetically, if Bombardier did build Griffin jets, I'm sure saab would provide training and engineers to assist?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

True, but at least they wouldn't be starting from scratch is the main thing.

They would truly be starting from scratch

There is nothing left from the days that they made fighters. they don't even have the manufacturing lines, processes and tools to do it, we'd literally have to build a whole industry, and for 65 jets that would be ######ed, that's what this guy doesn't get.

[speede5]

The only way Canada wins by building it's own fighters is if they can secure the build on a good amount of export aircraft as well. It just doesn't work to do a short run. It has to become a sustainable industry.

Easy on BI, I happen to think we know a fair bit about aircraft. haha. Bombardier would be best equipped to give it a go in Canada, but it's not even on the radar.

Canada is going to be going after the training side of things though, if the F35 program ever launches expect to see a fighter training program similar to NFTC.

[Zulu29]

Bump

Apparently Boeing offered its super hornets to the government at half the price of the f-35.

[speede5]

Of course they did. It's obsolete an they have nothing else to offer.

It's a model year clear out. Haha

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by speede5

The only way Canada wins by building it's own fighters is if they can secure the build on a good amount of export aircraft as well. It just doesn't work to do a short run. It has to become a sustainable industry.

Easy on BI, I happen to think we know a fair bit about aircraft. haha. Bombardier would be best equipped to give it a go in Canada, but it's not even on the radar.

Canada is going to be going after the training side of things though, if the F35 program ever launches expect to see a fighter training program similar to NFTC.

By the time we developed and tooled up production for a 65 plane run it would make the F-35 price per plane look like pennies.

On top of this the production line for building private jets and cargo planes is far different from the precision lines and exotic materials assembly for a next generation fighter so no we don't have the facilities or the industry to build our own jet.

Plus there's next to no chance that the major players in the aerospace industry would give Canada easy entrance into that market and its not a huge market if you take countries like the U.S. and the eurozone out of the market place because they build their own planes.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Bump

Apparently Boeing offered its super hornets to the government at half the price of the f-35.

Uncle Vern's used cars.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

On top of this the production line for building private jets and cargo planes is far different from the precision lines and exotic materials assembly for a next generation fighter so no we don't have the facilities or the industry to build our own jet.

I don't really agree with you there. I know we aren't going to be able to become a manufacturer but it not due to a lack of skills or facilities. It's all political. Aircraft aren't built on assembly lines like cars, most of the special tooling is jigs and stands which are all semi portable.

Composite technology is the way if the future, and Canada could easily play in that market.

The problem is all the details are top secret, and the US won't let that stuff out of its grip. We deal with ITARS every day, and it's hard enough to get a widget from the states for a plane we've bought and paid for.

I know it's not going to happen, but it's not unthinkable and it's mostly political. Cost is only prohibitive if you only get to build your aircraft.