[PGT] Flames fall 3-2 in shootout to Chicago.

[Bertuzzied]

We really need Cammy out of the lineup or at least a huge demotion. and Glencross moving down if he can't finish.

Iginla-Ceverenka- Hudler
Tanguay-Backlund-Glencross
Stajan-Stempniak-Cammy
Anyone who can hit more than twice a game-Anyone who can hit more than twice a game-Anyone who can hit more than twice a game

Maybe we should trade Butler to Detroit for Tootoo.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It works in both directions, and I can happily admit that my natural tendency to view things optimistically indeed carries over into my interpretation of ALL events—including my perception of hockey games in which my favourite team is playing.

Are the Flames a better team this year than last year? Honestly, it is too early to tell. Are they a lottery team? Again, there is probably not nearly enough data from which to know for certain. With this in mind, I think that everyone really would be well served to reserve judgement, one way or the other.

I will say this much: Through six games lats season the Flames had compiled a 2-3-1 record. Through their first five home games they were 2-2-1. In their first six they were -3 in GF/GA (15-18), and were pretty regularly trounced on the shot-clock, having compiled an average of 25.5/31.1 SF/SA per game (153 for, 186 against). They finished last season dead last in faceoff winning percentage.

Their record is MARGINALLY worse than it was at this time last year, but their numbers on the powerplay, faceoffs, shots for and against are all significantly better. Again, I can't say for certain if the team is any (or much) better than last year's version—it is too early to tell. But by the same token it is too early to determine that this is indeed a bad hockey team. What I think is fairly abundantly clear is that the team is not worse than last year's—not in any meaningful way, and the places in which they do seem to have improved significantly compensate for any apparent setbacks.

What a funny example of dissonance this is.

A tremendous amount of hoop jumping followed by an admission that the Flames are indeed actually worse than last year as it stands right now.

You think it's abundantly clear that the team is no worse than last years, a 10th place team, aka, a bad team. It's abundantly clear to me that they are indeed worse, and the first and only place I have to look is their record, the premier evaluation method of success, to see that they are, indeed, worse. Worse than the start the Flames had last season where they were in 13th until December. Worse than the start the Flames had last season where they held a playoff spot for less than 48 combined hours.

Through 6 games, they've scored less goals than last year and allowed more and have a worse record. I don't know how you can attempt to spin that as if the Flames aren't worse than the 9th place team (that went for it) they were last season.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What a funny example of dissonance this is.

A tremendous amount of hoop jumping followed by an admission that the Flames are indeed actually worse than last year as it stands right now.

You think it's abundantly clear that the team is no worse than last years, a 10th place team, aka, a bad team. It's abundantly clear to me that they are indeed worse, and the first and only place I have to look is their record, the premier evaluation method of success, to see that they are, indeed, worse. Worse than the start the Flames had last season where they were in 13th until December. Worse than the start the Flames had last season where they held a playoff spot for less than 48 hours combined hours.

Through 6 games, they've scored less goals than last year and allowed more and have a worse record. I don't know how you can attempt to spin that as if the Flames aren't worse than the 9th place team (that went for it) they were last season.

Pretty much. The fact is that this years pig may have a lot more lipstick than last year but it's also a bigger pig. The record is MARGINALLY worse? Guess what. Marginally is still worse and until we see otherwise the team simply isn't better. For the record I like Hartley and feel he will be a fine coach for the Flames but the makeup of this year's team is just as flawed as past years and it remains to be seen is there is that special coach out there able fix the real issues that ails the Flames.

[AltaGuy]

It's funny reading this thread about how good or bad we may be right now - basically an argument about predictions that's futile until we play some more games and get some more results.

From my perspective, the Flames look better than I expected them to look, while their record is what I expected. I think that's why I'm probably not unhappy about the way we've played - I thought we'd suck, but Estrada is right that there's lipstick on that pig. And I think it's hot.

Whether those positives actually translate into wins at any point is the futile argument I noted above until we get more results. So my prediction: I think we'll get better results as the season goes along. However, doesn't change my belief that we should be trying to get some futures for Iggy and whomever else we can at the deadline.

[MissTeeks]

Another defenseman to add to the rotation:

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg
Babchuk has been cleared for contact and will travel with the team on the road. #Flames

[jg13]

Atleast we have babchuk back for the road trip.

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg:

Babchuk has been cleared for contact and will travel with the team on the road. #Flames

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What a funny example of dissonance this is.

A tremendous amount of hoop jumping followed by an admission that the Flames are indeed actually worse than last year as it stands right now.

You think it's abundantly clear that the team is no worse than last years, a 10th place team, aka, a bad team. It's abundantly clear to me that they are indeed worse, and the first and only place I have to look is their record, the premier evaluation method of success, to see that they are, indeed, worse. Worse than the start the Flames had last season where they were in 13th until December. Worse than the start the Flames had last season where they held a playoff spot for less than 48 combined hours.

Through 6 games, they've scored less goals than last year and allowed more and have a worse record. I don't know how you can attempt to spin that as if the Flames aren't worse than the 9th place team (that went for it) they were last season.

Last year we had 15GF, 18GA with 5pts this year we have 16GF, 22GA with 4pts.

Through 6 games I'm not sure why ANYONE is ready to say we're significantly better OR worse...I mean it's 6 games, even in a shortened season how can anyone judge one way or another?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by flamesrule_kipper34

Last year we had 15GF, 18GA with 5pts this year we have 16GF, 22GA with 4pts.

Through 6 games I'm not sure why ANYONE is ready to say we're significantly better OR worse...I mean it's 6 games, even in a shortened season how can anyone judge one way or another?

Because in relation to their competition, they've been the worse. The competition will naturally progress throughout the season, as we imagine the Flames may, or at least hope. The fact it's a shorten season magnifies the terrible start, considering it was the easiest part of their schedule for the whole season.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Fan X and Fan Y can debate all they want if the team is better or worse but the truth is in the record. At the end of the day all teams are judged solely on wins and losses. If this team goes 1-2 on the road this week (highly probable) we are still likely looking at the basement of the standings close to middle of February.

All I know is that as the weeks go by any arguments of improvement are going to get substantially weaker as the losses and missed opportunities at points accumulate.

Yeah, totally. The only way to evaluate a team is by its record. Digging any deeper is just hoop jumping and spin. Fantastic anti-intellectalism.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Pretty much. The fact is that this years pig may have a lot more lipstick than last year but it's also a bigger pig. The record is MARGINALLY worse? Guess what. Marginally is still worse and until we see otherwise the team simply isn't better. For the record I like Hartley and feel he will be a fine coach for the Flames but the makeup of this year's team is just as flawed as past years and it remains to be seen is there is that special coach out there able fix the real issues that ails the Flames.

Not to mention, could the schedule have been set up any better for the Flames? 3 games against non-playoff teams, seeing a few teams at the end of long road trips, one extra day of training camp, a really healthy break, almost no travel and 5 home games.

Gotta wonder what kind of hockey we are going to get when they can play the "fatigue" card.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Another defenseman to add to the rotation:

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg
Babchuk has been cleared for contact and will travel with the team on the road. #Flames

While so far he is only cleared for contact, when he is re-activated, the Flames will have 24 bodies. Either someone will have to be moved or Baertschi will have to go on IR. If so, they could backdate to Jan 24th, which would mean he would be inactive at least until Feb 17th, which is both 24 days and 10 games (guessing he will be out longer than that anyway, so...).

[Igottago]

I wouldn't be suprised to see the Flames rattle off 3 or 4 wins in a row now. I also wouldn't be suprised to see them lose another 3 or 4.

The team right now is still an unknown quanitity. I think there's been enough change to need some more games before really having a solid grasp on what the team is. But given what we've seen this year I'm not going to give in to the doom and gloom just yet. Despite the record there has been some fantastic hockey played by this team, better than a lot of the hockey they played the last 3 years. But there needs to be that final execution that is the margin between being a winner or a loser. A win vs Detroit tomorrow could be crucial to turning things around.

[JD]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Not to mention, could the schedule have been set up any better for the Flames? 3 games against non-playoff teams, seeing a few teams at the end of long road trips, one extra day of training camp, a really healthy break, almost no travel and 5 home games.

Easy to say all of this, but the Flames' opponents so far have a combined 31-10-7 record. Playoff teams or not, the teams the Flames have gone up against are playing some great hockey. The Flames themselves are going through some transition, new coaching staff, new system, new 2nd line that was basically missing for the first three games. With the season progressing, I don't think an objective viewer couldn't agree that they've improved as things have gone on, even looking pretty good the last couple games.

It's way too early to start writing them off and calling them a bad team. I get that they don't get the benefit of the doubt with a lot of you, but why stamp all over the hopes of those of us that want to see this season optimistically?

[magicpixels]

Yes it's only six games which equates to 1/8th of the total season. However this is kinda mindblowing. What happens if we lose both our road games to Det and CBJ and all the sudden we are 1-5-2. Then what. Oh it's only 8 games or 1/6th of the season.

Don't think it's impossible either. CBJ made fools of us last year on the road as we aren't a historically good road team. It doesn't matter if it's only 6 or only 8 games as making up points on 7-10 teams isn't easy unless you string together 6 or more wins.

Sure we are better this year but so are a lot of other teams.

[JD]

Originally Posted by magicpixels

Yes it's only six games which equates to 1/8th of the total season. However this is kinda mindblowing. What happens if we lose both our road games to Det and CBJ and all the sudden we are 1-5-2. Then what. Oh it's only 8 games or 1/6th of the season.

I can play this game too!

What happens if the Flames win their games against two teams that are hit pretty hard with the injury bug? Then "all of a sudden" they're 3-3-2 with games in hand!

I dunno... I guess I like to actually see the sky fall before I start proclaiming that it is falling.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Fan X and Fan Y can debate all they want if the team is better or worse but the truth is in the record. At the end of the day all teams are judged solely on wins and losses. If this team goes 1-2 on the road this week (highly probable) we are still likely looking at the basement of the standings close to middle of February.

There's that word again. No. At this early stage of the season "the truth" is nothing much more than a matter of interpretation of numerous variables that indeed can be employed to make various points and predictions about the outcome of the season. To speak of "the truth" after six games, and to pretend that you have a monopoly on it is arrogant at best, ignorant at worst.

No. A team's record at this point in the season cannot be used as the final arbiter of how the teams measure up against one another, nor is it very reliable for predicting how they will all finish. It does not at all take into account how the season balances out, streaks, injuries, travel, and a multitude of other critical variables that all factor into what makes for success or failure in an NHL season. You are projecting certainties from extremely nuanced probabilities, and it makes you appear dogmatic.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

All I know is that as the weeks go by any arguments of improvement are going to get substantially weaker as the losses and missed opportunities at points accumulate.

You DON'T KNOW THIS because it hasn't happened yet. You may think that the team is destined to continue to struggle, but this is in fact something that legitimately remains a matter of debate. Of course, someone with such a propensity for entrenched opinions and peremptory assertions is likely not prone to embrace a much more patient view of things.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nieuwy-89

I agree. How anyone can spin a 1-5 record is beyond me...

It is quite simple, actually. With six games played there are still 42 remaining on the schedule. In other words, this is a woefully incomplete dataset, and rather than make preemptive judgements and predictions of doom and failure, some of us would prefer to let things play out a little longer, especially based on a number of the considerably positive things we have seen in the course of the games themselves.

I don't really think this is "spin". It is measured optimism that the record may in fact improve in due course.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by magicpixels

...Sure we are better this year but so are a lot of other teams.

I blame the new CBA.

Had the players and all those anonymous Russian billionaires actually done the right thing and launched their mega successful, instantly credible alternative League, and had the NHLPA thumbed their noses at those dumb fat cat owners like they should have, the Flames would be laughing all the way to their second Stanley Cup right now.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There's that word again. No. At this early stage of the season "the truth" is nothing much more than a matter of interpretation of numerous variables that indeed can be employed to make various points and predictions about the outcome of the season. To speak of "the truth" after six games, and to pretend that you have a monopoly on it is arrogant at best, ignorant at worst.

No. A team's record at this point in the season cannot be used as the final arbiter of how the teams measure up against one another, nor is it very reliable for predicting how they will all finish. It does not at all take into account how the season balances out, streaks, injuries, travel, and a multitude of other critical variables that all factor into what makes for success or failure in an NHL season. You are projecting certainties from extremely nuanced probabilities, and it makes you appear dogmatic.


You DON'T KNOW THIS because it hasn't happened yet. You may think that the team is destined to continue to struggle, but this is in fact something that legitimately remains a matter of debate. Of course, someone with such a propensity for entrenched opinions and peremptory assertions is likely not prone to embrace a much more patient view of things.

Sorry I'm not going to get into a long winded argument about this with you as long winded arguments are your specialy but record is all that counts at this point. Nobody said that this poor start guarantees a last place finish but it surely makes the probabilities higher with every loss. The future doesn't matter today because it hasn't happened yet and I'm not going to argue about what may or may not happen. All I have to go on is the record and how they have played. I think the coach has done a good job getting the players to play hard and adapt to his system but I still see the same tell tale signs from the past. The same slow starters starting slow, Kipper on his good year/bad year rotation which is unfortunately on bad year.

I want them to turn it around just as much as anyone else here but the Iginla/Kipper and Co. Flames ran out of goodwill years ago and I'm not going to be happy because they are playing more up tempo hockey until it results in wins and points in the standings. The fact is they stink right now despite opening with a schedule tailored to a quick start with 5/6 games at home and 3 visiting teams coming in on the 2nd half of back to backs.

You coming back with long winded responses isn't going to change what's happened to this point in the season and you can't tell the future any more than I can.

[JD]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You coming back with long winded responses isn't going to change what's happened to this point in the season and you can't tell the future any more than I can.

The difference is that the naysayers are extrapolating a small sample size into "predicting the future". Textcritic is saying you can't do that and there's a chance this can turn around and that there are signs that it may have already started.

The old truth in hockey is that teams play well and lose games just before a winning streak and they tend to play poorly and win anyway at the end of them. On Saturday night, you saw two teams as perfect examples of each. The Hawks were way more terrible-looking than being tired should have accounted for.