[PGT] Flames lose 6-3 vs Avs

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Igster

Couches rarely give looks, but when they do, it's time for a new one...

LOL whoops

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Eric Duhatschek on 960 this afternoon said that he believes there will be only a small handfull of teams out of it by the deadline due to the abbreviated schedule and that there may me much more buyers than sellers. Said if the Flames lose another few games and win maybe 2 of the first 10 and plod along after that they could capitalize on a big sellers market if they choose. Would be a great draft to pick up multiple picks in the first two rounds and end up with a good quantity of quality young players. Just the type of springboard this franchise could use to accelerate the rebuilding.

Yeah that's a great point by Eric D - and again underscores why this year may be the perfect year for the Flames to be dragged kicking and screaming into a change in approach.

There are also a lot of teams that I think feel they are close - where adding a piece could put them over the top. Thinking that if the Flames are dealing anyone of note, they probably only want to do so to the east I think you still have
- Boston
- Buffalo
- Philly
- NYR
- Tampa
- NJ
- Pitt

Who all could be driving for a championship, or at least think they are.

[OzSome]

Wow we lost in less than 5 minutes to go and the sky is already falling. It was anybody's game actually until that powerplay (Giordano's penalty). After that powerplay goal they just collapsed.

I have never seen Kipper gave up that many bad goals in one game. He looks shaky last night. Usually he gives up one bad goal and he bounced back but last night's game he must have given 2-3 or 4 bad goals.

Butler came back in the lineup and messed up right away. I guess it is starting to prove that Jay Bouwmeester was handcuffed in playing he used to (while in Florida) was because of Butler's inability to cover up for him. Brent Sutter couldn't see it or too stubborn to make the changes. Derek Smith deserves to dress next game over Butler, that's for sure.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Playing this run and gun style SHOULD pad a lot of our player's stats. If they don't get it together, and the Flames decide to trade away a lot of players, hopefully the seller's market + bigger offensive numbers = better packages.

IF the Flames decide to make major moves, I do believe it will be a quicker fix than Edmonton's. I think their poor scouting (I don't know of any other notable players coming up even with all those draft picks they got) and just a bad time to tank (Hall's ceiling IMO is not as good as Tavares, Stamkos, etc.).

I think Columbus should be a better team in 2-4 years based just on this year's drafting (if their scouting staff is up to the task). I really have full faith in Calgary's scouting lately. I really like the depth the Flames have in prospects (lots of potential NHL players coming up, just not enough blue-chippers). IF the Flames blow it up, I don't think they would be at the bottom of the standings for much more than 2 seasons.

My heart still wants to cheer for this team, push into the playoffs, and make a run. My mind tells me that will probably not happen.

[The Big Thirsty]

Originally Posted by OzSome

Wow we lost in less than 5 minutes to go and the sky is already falling. It was anybody's game actually until that powerplay (Giordano's penalty). After that powerplay goal they just collapsed.

I have never seen Kipper gave up that many bad goals in one game. He looks shaky last night. Usually he gives up one bad goal and he bounced back but last night's game he must have given 2-3 or 4 bad goals.

Butler came back in the lineup and messed up right away. I guess it is starting to prove that Jay Bouwmeester was handcuffed in playing he used to (while in Florida) was because of Butler's inability to cover up for him. Brent Sutter couldn't see it or too stubborn to make the changes. Derek Smith deserves to dress next game over Butler, that's for sure.

You haven't seen him give up that many bad goals in a game? Did you not watch the Anaheim game?

We had just came off 3 points in our last 4 games. Inserting Butler back into the lineup was ridiculous. Actually has me questioning Hartley's decision making.

[return to the red]

Originally Posted by OzSome

Derek Smith deserves to dress next game over Butler, that's for sure.

Well it looks like Smith is gonna dress but it isn't for Butler

[clancy]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yeah that's a great point by Eric D - and again underscores why this year may be the perfect year for the Flames to be dragged kicking and screaming into a change in approach.

There are also a lot of teams that I think feel they are close - where adding a piece could put them over the top. Thinking that if the Flames are dealing anyone of note, they probably only want to do so to the east I think you still have
- Boston
- Buffalo
- Philly
- NYR
- Tampa
- NJ
- Pitt

Who all could be driving for a championship, or at least think they are.

This would be the perfect year. We could be out of it and only have to suffer for a couple of months.
Having said that, I see so many positive signs that I could actually see this team going on one of those improbable runs. Every year there is a team that rattles of a 20 game stretch of success that no one sees coming.
This last game comes down to goaltending and goaltending only.
In reality, this team could have won every game it has played( should have been up by 4 after the first period against San Jose). I like the way they are playing, and when Kipper becomes Kipper again it could be very fun to watch.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Yeah that's a great point by Eric D - and again underscores why this year may be the perfect year for the Flames to be dragged kicking and screaming into a change in approach.

There are also a lot of teams that I think feel they are close - where adding a piece could put them over the top. Thinking that if the Flames are dealing anyone of note, they probably only want to do so to the east I think you still have
- Boston
- Buffalo
- Philly
- NYR
- Tampa
- NJ
- Pitt

Who all could be driving for a championship, or at least think they are.

I wrote this on another board, but pertinent here:

I know it is only 5-games in and we are a couple of months away from the deadline. But if we continue to lose is the time finally right to rebuild?

A Deep Draft

This is being touted as one of the strongest drafts in years. I would never intentionally tank. But picking in the top 5 this season wouldn't be the worst thing for the Flames. Neither would acquiring as many picks as you can get.

The New Guys are Taking Over

Our best players have been Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Brodie, Wideman, Glencross, Tanguay, etc. Guys that are young or locked in long term. Plus we have players like Baertschi and Horak that are showing they are ready for prime time. We are starting to show the pieces we need to have to survive without yesterdays top players.

Contracts

Iginla's contract expires at season end. Kipper's, Cammalleri's, and Bouwmeester's contracts all expire the season after. So we either extend them (if we even have the option) and keep rebuilding around the same core. Or we lose them for nothing. Or we move them for assets.

Other Teams

Washington, Philly, Carolina, NYR, LA, etc are all contending teams that are struggling early. These are teams that could soon be desperate enough to pay big for some of the assets we have.

Meanwhile other teams you would expect to be sellers are doing well. Meaning we may be one of the few teams in selling mode further increasing the value of our assets.

Add major injuries to the mix (ie Philly) and the market is in our favor.

Depth Players

In addition to the big guns we also have guys like Butler, Sarich, Jackman, Stempniak, Smith, Stajan, etc that other teams may be interested to help them in a long playoff run.

Buy Out

The shortened season combined with the buy-out could make some teams willing to take a run with a player like Cammalleri or Stajan. Their cap doesn't matter this season, and they can be bought out next. All of a sudden guys you couldn't trade are potentially decent assets.

If the Flames acquire some top NHL ready prospects, pick top 5, and stock pile picks for the next draft how much better off will they be? I know a lot of people on here hate the idea of a rebuild. But can the Flames really let all of these assets expire? Or commit long term contracts and cap to depreciating assets?

[868904]

Originally Posted by OzSome

Wow we lost in less than 5 minutes to go and the sky is already falling. .

The sky has been falling for 5 years now.

I think you have to realize that the old core here just isn't working. It's time for a change.

It doesn't necessarily mean we've given up on the season or the team, in fact, I think this team would actually be better off if they traded the old core and kept a few veterans around like Glencross, Hudler, Gio, and Wideman around. THose guys are still in their prime and would be keep the team competitive, but then you'd balance it out with youthful creativity and skill.

The problem up north is that they are too young and their veterans either suck (Horcoff) or are too injury prone (Hemsky, Whitney).

Everything is about balance. I think the Flames have too many veterans here and not enough young skill and enthusiasm.

[minnow]

I read something about them switching up Glencross and Cammi today at practice, anyone know for sure?

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by The Big Thirsty

You haven't seen him give up that many bad goals in a game? Did you not watch the Anaheim game?

We had just came off 3 points in our last 4 games. Inserting Butler back into the lineup was ridiculous. Actually has me questioning Hartley's decision making.

Come on you cannot blame all those bad goals solely on Kipper. Flames let Anaheim go in front of the net without making them pay. Last night's game was just plain brutal Kipper that gave up on those bad goals. Those bad goals he gave up he used to stop with no problem. I am not saying Kipper is the only reason they lost. Also I am not being down on Kipper because I know he will bounce back. Even Superman gets a bad day sometimes.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by minnow

I read something about them switching up Glencross and Cammi today at practice, anyone know for sure?

they've reunited Cammalleri - Tanguay - Iginla and put Glencross with Backlund and Stempniak.

Cammalleri - Tanguay - Iginla
Glencross - Backlund - Stempniak
Cervenka - Stajan - Hudler

and it also sounds like Sarich will be scratched next game to play Smith with Butler...which should be interesting

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Finally managed to catch the game. Disappointed is too strong a word as expectations for weak play have creeped in over the last few years.

But one thing that has stood out to me so far in this abbreviated season: our better players are generally those who have played the fewest games in Flames silks. Cervenka, Hudler, Wideman, and arguably Brodie and Stajan (since their games have been limited over the last couple of years).

The players that have the longer tenures are those that are generally playing poorly compared to their teammates.

All this suggests to me that the coaching isn't and hasn't been the problem in the last few years. The leadership that's supposed to step forward in the dressing room has cashed out.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

But one thing that has stood out to me so far in this abbreviated season: our better players are generally those who have played the fewest games in Flames silks. Cervenka, Hudler, Wideman, and arguably Brodie and Stajan (since their games have been limited over the last couple of years).

I think a big factor is that these new guys are getting a lot more leeway and getting way more praise than they deserve because they are new and it is easier to get excited about them being good and some how changing the fortunes of the team.

[vektor]

Say we win 5 in the first 20 games, we should start selling everything not named Backlund, Baertschi or Ramo. If we are that bad I hope the owners don't punish us by not even trying to turn things around. Worst case scenario, we lose Kiprusoff and Iginla for nothing, buyout Camalleri and finish dead last this season and next. The way things have been going the worst case scenario isn't that improbable, even the freakin Islanders are making noise this year, the Islanders.

Things are dire my fellow fans, that faint hope of a surge to the playoffs is already becoming dimmer. As our veterans age and depreciate our defense and our goalie struggle, the next year will decide the future of the Flames for a long time, our team is in Feaster's hands.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by moon

I think a big factor is that these new guys are getting a lot more leeway and getting way more praise than they deserve because they are new and it is easier to get excited about them being good and some how changing the fortunes of the team.

If Iginla got an assist in his first game and 2-goals and an assist on his second game while being one of the best forwards on the ice I am pretty sure we would be singing his praise as well.

[moon]

Originally Posted by vektor

Say we win 5 in the first 20 games, we should start selling everything not named Backlund, Baertschi or Ramo.

Why would Backlund and Ramo be included with Baertschi? There are a lot more guys that should be kept before those two.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Remember that time Calgary didn't trade their #1 centre who they had no intention of keeping beyond the year except for in 'just in case scenarios', they just let him walk away for free?

Those were the days. Those were the days.

This team has been absolutely masterful at accumulating quality assets at the trade deadline.

I assume the trend will continue again this year.

[vektor]

Originally Posted by moon

Why would Backlund and Ramo be included with Baertschi? There are a lot more guys that should be kept before those two.

Ramo is the only potential #1 goalie we have besides Kipper
Backlund is our only NHL ready prospect right now (I guess you need to include Brodie too)

based on the trend of this team over the past few years if we falter again we need a complete overhaul by switching from a win now to a developing assets point of view. Giordano, Bouwmeester, Glencross, Tanguay, Cervenka etc. etc aren't going to develop much more than they are worth before their contracts are up (well maybe if Bouwmeester has a miracle return to grace). Sell everything that isn't going to develop any more because sooner as opposed to later the contracts are going to expire. There's not going to be a lot of guys like Hudler, Cervenka or Glencross that are going to stick around on this team if we are sitting in last season after season while we aren't developing significant potential. Imagine if we lose all those guys for nothing because they don't want to stay on the team after Kiprusoff and Iginla are no longer carrying the team.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Eric Duhatschek on 960 this afternoon said that he believes there will be only a small handfull of teams out of it by the deadline due to the abbreviated schedule and that there may me much more buyers than sellers. Said if the Flames lose another few games and win maybe 2 of the first 10 and plod along after that they could capitalize on a big sellers market if they choose. Would be a great draft to pick up multiple picks in the first two rounds and end up with a good quantity of quality young players. Just the type of springboard this franchise could use to accelerate the rebuilding.

I fully agree with Duhatschek theory of "more buyers than sellers" at the deadline. I don't think the flames will be out of it by then. This team has more talent then years past. Iggy while yes has had slow starts to the season, has actually looked way better then past starts to other seasons. I believe we are going to see Iggy start scoring and scoring a lot. Kipper will be better, they are going to keep on starting him until he gets better. The flames will probably be well below the .500 mark come ten games , but like years past will get on a run. Teams are already starting to go to "back up goaltending" mode when playing the flames. That is how the last couple of seasons "runs" started. I don't think they will make the playoffs, mainly because of the defensive play, but will not be far enough out of it come the deadline.

My biggest fear is that Calgary will be a buyer at the deadline if they are in the mix or even 4- 5 points out of it. Prices will be high, but ownership really wants to re-sign Iggy and make the playoffs. God knows what they would give up to get to their mandate, but i could see Gaudreau traded just for the chance to sneak in.

The flames really need ownership to accept the fact that this team needs to go in a new direction. Unfortunately they need a brick dropped on their head to realise this. I have a bad feeling that the brick will not be dropped this season.