Standings Death for Seth?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Stop Winnin' for MacKinnon has a much better ring to it.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by MattyC

People are pushing the panic button waaaay to early here. The team is implimenting a system that is dramatically different from the one they've been playiong for the past few years.

I think the team is largely improved from last year and the team is at least entertaining to watch which is more than I can say for the past couple years of Flames hockey.

And also, failing is not winning. No matter how Bob MacKenzie, Dreger et al want to spin it. It is an embarrasing way to attempt to build a team and it should be punished not encouraged.

no panic here...have over 250 games of evidence that a rebuild is overdue. a first class franchise would have started one sometime in 2009 or 2010. this team/organization still has an extremely shortsighted view (whether it be hanging on to iginla for too long, not being sellers at trade deadlines or signing too many forwards to ensure sven a top 6/9 spot) that is inevitably driving it towards ongoing mediocrity (at best). the time for panic was a long time ago, we're well past that point now.

[The Fonz]

A nice breakdown for the non-playoff picks would be...

Teams 30-26
20%
18%
15%
12%
10%
= 75%

Teams 25-21
8%
6%
4%
2%
1%
= 21%

Teams 20-17
1%
1%
1%
1%
= 4%

[pikester]

The simple fact is this management team is constantly fooling themselves, & more importantly the fans, into thinking that with a few tweaks this is a contending playoff team. Reality should be clueing people in but for whatever reason (fear of a season ticket holder revolt I suspect), they seem stubborn to the point of risking the integrity of their franchise.

No one is endorsing a full blown, burn it to the ground rebuild being required. I'm sure if you sat down over a few Scotch with Katz & Tambellini they'd admit that being forced into a bottom up rebuild on account of sucking so bad is not how they wanted to accomplish it but none the less that is what they reaped.

The only thing left for the Flames to do without completely dismantling what they have would be a "mid level' rebuild keeping GlenX, Gio, Brodie, Sven, Hudler, etc; then moving out Kipper, Iggy, JayBo, maybe Backlund for other younger prospects & picks.

You know that old saying about doing the same things & expecting a different result...

[polak]

It's the Flames.

If we draft #1 we'll get another Patrik Stefan.

You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it.

[North East Goon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The odds of winning the lottery are the same, I believe. But the odds of getting the top pick have changed dramatically for some positions. Finishing last used to get you a 48.6% chance of picking first overall. Now it is only 25%.

Thanks Edmonton!

[Coach]

Originally Posted by magicpixels

They just got routed by the worst team in the league. A team that's missing it's entire first line and was playing its 3rd game in 4 nights. A team that scored only 1 goal in their previous 3 games.

When you lose to teams like this it's time to take a step back and seriously look at who you are and where you are going.

They aren't going to be in the playoffs and that's obvious.

Its a game. S*** happens. Two crappy goals go in an all of a sudden a game in which you carried the play for the majority becomes a loss. I highly doubt this will be the first time the last place team beats a team above them this season.

In fact I'm willing to bet that a bottom 5 team will beat a top 5 team at least 5 times this season.

I don't disagree with trading off some aging assets for younger players and prospects, if the deals are right. By I still expect to compete. The minute a team starts a mantra of losing in order to gain (a slight) chance at getting top picks is the minute I find another team to cheer for. Thats not what hockey, or sports in general is about. It's about winning. Puck races, board battles, games, series', Stanley Cups.

Getting a top 5 pick because you suck (possibly on purpose) is not winning.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by magicpixels

In all fairness we didn't trade a pick for Cammy. We traded Bourque straight up for him which is a steal. The 2nd round pick was given for Ramo.

You pointed out our problem fairly well. We are an aging team and it's hard to expect us to compete well against teams that are significantly younger.

It's fair to say for guys like Iginly, Tanguay, Kipper, etc that their best years are behind them.

Your first point is valid. But I'd say trading a 2nd round pick for a 26 year old KHL goalie is just another "win now" move. It's a huge risk and clearly one made in hopes of replacing Kiprusoff immediately. A rebuilding team holds onto the 2nd rounder and signs a capable veteran goalie to a short term, $3m dollar deal in the off-season when Kipper moves on to fill the void.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

no panic here...have over 250 games of evidence that a rebuild is overdue. a first class franchise would have started one sometime in 2009 or 2010. this team/organization still has an extremely shortsighted view (whether it be hanging on to iginla for too long, not being sellers at trade deadlines or signing too many forwards to ensure sven a top 6/9 spot) that is inevitably driving it towards ongoing mediocrity (at best). the time for panic was a long time ago, we're well past that point now.

Panic got us into this mess when Darryl Sutter traded one of the games best young defenseman for crap, amongst other bad moves. Thats what panic breeds. ENSURING players spots (even young promising ones) is another problem this team has had. Nothing is for sure I think many of the signings and trades were made to create competition amongst the players. And I think if Sven was healthy we'd see him take over for Cammy if he doesnt get his crap together in the next game or two.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by JayP

Your first point is valid. But I'd say trading a 2nd round pick for a 26 year old KHL goalie is just another "win now" move. It's a huge risk and clearly one made in hopes of replacing Kiprusoff immediately. A rebuilding team holds onto the 2nd rounder and signs a capable veteran goalie to a short term, $3m dollar deal in the off-season when Kipper moves on to fill the void.

If people want to trade him we have to have someone to play in his place, don't we?. Otherwise our tandem in net would be Irving/?

Also don't know if trading a 2nd for a prime aged goalie (who is looking great overseas btw) is a HUGE risk. Risk maybe. Huge, I don't know. With that 2nd rounder could you draft a good prime aged-goaltender? Arent good players between 22-28 exactly what everyone wants?

[Stay Golden]

What are the new rules for the lottery draft break down?
The last place team isn't guaranteed the first pick. I don't know if this is true or not but i heard that the bottom 14 teams would be eligible? Or is it all of them because of the lock out season?

So losing to draft could be pointless especially with the Flames likely bad luck we finish in the bottom and pick 10th etc because of an unlucky draw.

I like that MacKinnon kid anyways.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by magicpixels

They just got routed by the worst team in the league.

Come on, anyone that watched the game knows that 6-3 was not indicative - this was a 3-3 game late in the third and for the most part evenly played.

Every post your write appears to be designed to tick off the board.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by JayP

Your first point is valid. But I'd say trading a 2nd round pick for a 26 year old KHL goalie is just another "win now" move. It's a huge risk and clearly one made in hopes of replacing Kiprusoff immediately. A rebuilding team holds onto the 2nd rounder and signs a capable veteran goalie to a short term, $3m dollar deal in the off-season when Kipper moves on to fill the void.

I think the Ramo scenario is interesting - though one wonders if they would have made it if they had Brossoit and Gillies in the system developing at they are now - back then.

I think the concern is that there isn't a clear successor to Kipper - and certainly there were even less options when they traded for Ramo.

I actually take comfort in the fact that they have a few options for the post-Kipper world.

[Tinordi]

I really hope people digest the realities here. There is no road that's a gradual improvement. Hoping for that strategy to somehow turn the franchise into a contender is delusional. Thinking about short term failure for long term success does not make you less of a fan or less honourable of a franchise. What do we care about here, our principles or winning the damn cup?

Only the people who have lambasted the Oilers and face the prospect of eating serious crow are the ones now piping up saying that course is unacceptable.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think the Ramo scenario is interesting - though one wonders if they would have made it if they had Brossoit and Gillies in the system developing at they are now - back then.

I think the concern is that there isn't a clear successor to Kipper - and certainly there were even less options when they traded for Ramo.

I actually take comfort in the fact that they have a few options for the post-Kipper world.

If things unfold as they appear to be by season's end, I'd rather have the 2nd rounder than Ramo.

[indes]

Disagree, scorched earth is a bull#### strategy. Feaster should be able to rebuild on the fly with the acquisitions of Hudler, Cervenka, Sven and Backlund.

We have some good veteran wingers who should net us some returns. Looking at the past 5 games I'm convinced this team would look just as good
without the likes of Cammy, Iggy, Kipper and to a lesser extent Tanguay.

On the flip side we all remember the famous quote from Feaster about how he won't rebuild. So we'll probably go down swinging...like a 90lb 84 old

[nik-]

It's going to be painful to watch Montreal take a nice player with that 2nd. Just like it sucked that we had to trade down this year to replenish our 2nd.

They need to just stop trading our picks from the first two rounds. Percentages be damned, lets at least give ourselves a chance at picking a good player here.

Additionally, we don't need scorched earth here at all. We just need to move out the two "faces of the franchise" for assets. We'll still have some nice players on this team, and while goaltending might be rough, trading away a 35 and 36 year old isn't "tanking". It's taking a sober look at your asset base and maximizing it to avoid bottoming out.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Only the people who have lambasted the Oilers and face the prospect of eating serious crow are the ones now piping up saying that course is unacceptable.

There are many teams that remain competitive for years/decades at a time while not being perpetually terrible in order to gain high picks. I would think there are more teams that see success from this than tanking. Columbus, Florida, NYI, Edmonton have all been working on this losing formula for years and it hasn't shown much improvement on any of those teams. Sure the potential is there, but until they actually do something that shows significant improvement the jury is out.

And even if the Oilers win a cup in the next few years, they will have forever and always lost their way there and in my mind, it completely flies in the face of sport in general. The fact that they are celebrated in the media and by their fans for losing is facepalm inducing.

[Brannigans Law]

People are over-reacting. The season is young. Dion is just in a slump and will bounce back. I think once things with Mike Keenan get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

People are over-reacting. The season is young. Bouwmeester is just adjusting to the Western Conference. I think once things with Brent Sutter get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

People are over-reacting. The season is young. We need to Brent work his system with his new secondary pieces and Iginla will get his goals. I think once things with Bouwmeester and this defensive core get settled we'll be ok under his system. Oops wrong year. Sorry

[Bingo]

There are just as many example of tank and never recover teams as tank and then become contenders ... it's not a guaranteed recipe at all.

I like the Philly rebuild from a few years ago where they made some bold moves (Forsberg etc) and altered their future while picking in the top ten to 15.

The key is building depth and continuing to put the best team on the ice that you can. What does that mean? Good adds in the right age range and not stop gaping with vets that have seen their better days.

The Flames have more interesting players in the fold than they've had in any of the last three seasons. These players aren't in their mid 30's they are young, or mid to late 20's and that is promising. The puck moving aspect of the current team suggests they are closer to the style needed to win in to today's NHL compared to that "we can't make a mistake" team that we've seen for some time.

I think they are on the right path, but that path may not lead to the playoffs this season.

Fans will hate to hear this but I think you can almost chart Jankowski and Gaudreau as the pace the team is on. If they can supplant that with some moves this year (that is they fall out of the race and move some vets) then great, but like others when the puck drops I have to cheer for a win.

But like Jiri said it's nice to have a silver lining.