Such a crappy time to be a Flames fan. That trade came on the heels of a ten game losing streak. It really made no sense, I now doubt that Darryl was solely behind that deal. I think ownership played a big role, I believe it when Keenan says ownership was pulling a lot of strings. Prior to the panic that season, Sutter was an ardent Phaneuf supporter.
We will never know the full truth but the bottom line is that is was a very bad day in the history of the franchise. Phaneuf detractors can put whatever spin they want but it doesnt change the fact that it's one of the worst examples of asset management the league has seen in recent history especially when we have seen depth defenseman fetch 2nd round drafts picks at the deadline. Phaneuf a few years before was a Norris finalist for crying out loud.
My point is that trading Iggy and Kipper, and aiming for suckage three years ago would've been a poor decision given that - in my estimation - we were one good center away from making the playoffs last season.
Not really so bizarre. Scorched earth is a poor policy, and there are ways to improve the team without it. Brad Richards is a good example, because he was an opportunity to improve the team by leaps and bounds all in one go. Our prospects have been improving incrementally despite not going full on suck.
It's very bizzare because you are working in a world of hypotheticals. Brad Richards is not a good example because the team was unable to acquire him. I agree we are one good centre away from being a much better team, but our current strategy is one of the reasons we don't have said player. 3 ways to acquire a good centre:
1) Trade for the player. Due to the Flames current strategy, we don't really have the assets that will acquire this player, or we would have to give up so much that is key to our line up or future, that we would then swap out one problem for another and be right back where we started.
2) Draft that player. Could happen later in the draft, but a scorched earth strategy gives you a much better chance of drafting one, like RNH.
3) Sign a high profile UFA, like Brad Richards. Possible at any point, but IMO a team in the Flames position will struggle to attract any really good UFA's to fill that hole. There are probably multiple reasons Richards ended up in New York and not Calgary: Wanted to be in NY, wanted to play for Torts, wanted to be closer to home. All of the above probably played a factor, but you know what else probably played a factor? Richards also likely liked his chances of present and future success a whole lot better with the Rangers than he did coming to Calgary. Calgary doesn't look poised to win now, or later, how appealing do you think that is to a difference making UFA with his head on straight, likely not very.
So talking about how our strategy is good because we are one "Brad Richards" away from being a contender is moot, because we likely can't attract one given our current situation, and at the very least, can't be used as an argument until we do.
It was the climax of a season turned into a nightmare.
So much optimism at the start of that year. Finally a #1C in Jokinen, finally Brent Sutter coaching this team, arguably the best defense in the league. This was coming off a year where we should have won the division if injuries and the salary cap didn't totally destroy us down the stretch.
The start that season was incredible I think we were 24-12-5 at the halfway point. We won a huge game against Vancouver in the shootout and then went on to lose 9 or 10 in row trade rumors rampant. Then wake up hung over Sunday after watching the Flames beat the Oilers and hear the news. Instantly I started thinking this was part of a plan that Sutter couldn't be that crazy. The day/night wore on and finally when i stopped checking CP and listening to the FAN my buddy texted me saying Dregger is reporting Jokinen and Prust have been traded for Higgins and Kotalik (who was scratched for 9 straight games). I simply couldn't beleive it. I was convinced Sutter was going to turn these assets into a number 1 center of something. It was the beginning of the end for that Flames playoff team and they have never recovered.
On the other side of the coin Dion did not improve in Toronto and has completely plateaued as a player. He was paid on potential and never lived up to it. He is better than Matt Stajan but that is not saying much.
Toronto can love Gilmour and Dion as much as they want but at the end of the day Gilmour won his only Cup in Calgary and Phaneuf got his only Norris nomination in Calgary.
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle
It's very bizzare because you are working in a world of hypotheticals. Brad Richards is not a good example because the team was unable to acquire him. I agree we are one good centre away from being a much better team, but our current strategy is one of the reasons we don't have said player. 3 ways to acquire a good centre:
So talking about how our strategy is good because we are one "Brad Richards" away from being a contender is moot, because we likely can't attract one given our current situation, and at the very least, can't be used as an argument until we do.
Would seem to me that contemplation of any team other than the exact team we have right now would constitute a hypothetical.
Would seem to me that contemplation of any team other than the exact team we have right now would constitute a hypothetical.
Exactly. So don't trump the Flames current strategy as a good one based on things the Flames aren't at this point, which is exactly what you are doing.
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Exactly. So don't trump the Flames current strategy as a good one based on things the Flames aren't at this point, which is exactly what you are doing.
I happen to think the Flames are pretty good and could get even better, hypothetically speaking of course.
I happen to think the Flames are pretty good and could get even better, hypothetically speaking of course.
LOL, that I'm fine with Saying the Flames strategy is a good one because we could get Brad Richards, when we were unable to get Brad Richards, is something completely different.
Oh Jiri. You actually went back just to make that post. Good on you sparing no expense to take a dig at me. I was still right that day and that bothers you.
The returns after three years suggests strongly that you were, in fact, wrong.
Sutter did not get fleeced by Burke. He failed to fleece Burke, yes, but none of the guys Toronto got have done much of anything for them either. Both teams got a bad deal.
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Terrible, terrible trade. We could have gotten legit young assets and picks to help us in the future but no, Darryl had to go all desperation mode on us. He also had to follow up with that abysmal Kotalik, Higgins trade that made zero sense. Imagine if we had drafted Baertschi back then and he was still in junior. Sutter would have probably flipped him in a deal for Gomez with the mindset he had that day. I wonder who his drug dealer was.
One of the worst value trades I have ever seen. Love or hate Phaneuf, he was worth a lot more than the complete trash Sutter got in return. That one article from a couple years ago seemed to reveal that Sutter inexplicably never opened talks with other teams for Phaneuf. Team could have gotten so much more in terms of youth and draft picks. Awful. Blown opportunity.
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The returns after three years suggests strongly that you were, in fact, wrong.
Sutter did not get fleeced by Burke. He failed to fleece Burke, yes, but none of the guys Toronto got have done much of anything for them either. Both teams got a bad deal.
How can you say that with a straight face? Saying Phaneuf hasn't done anything for them when he's their #1 defenseman and captain is simply denial. Has he taken them to the playoffs? No but I don't believe that's how you judge player for player swaps. You judge it based on contribution and Phaneuf contributes in almost 30 minutes ice time per game also Carter Ashton is the player they got for Aulie that is at least a contributor with their farm club.
I'm not a Stajan hater and think he's fine in his 3rd line role but he and our 8th defenseman (Babchuk) is all the Flames essentially have to show for that deal. Appologists and Phaneuf haters can put whatever spin they want but everyone outside of Calgary knows that was an extremely poor deal and lets not be like Oilers fans living in our own bubble arguing that it was anything else but a fleecing.
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I think this trade was simply a gift by the Sutters to Phaneuf - get him out of this locker room and the troubles that had arisen in there - and provide him with one of, if not the best, spotlights in the NHL - captain of the Leafs.
Phaneuf was highly touted by the Sutters and they did him a personal favour - at the expense of the team. At that point, Sutter had complete trust of the Flames and the city - too much power and trust often plays out badly.
Its played out to perfection for Phaneuf - just as planned.
Also the playoff hopefuls arguing with the rebuild idealist. No one will ever win this argument. Both sides are right and wrong with their reasoning and ideas and it won't solve anything accept for a long and endless arguments when the ultimate choice isn't up to us.
In my opinion if the flames make the playoffs, good. We worked hard to make it and we get to watch our team battle it out for hopefully more than one round. The playoff atmosphere we've had in the past is incredible. But if we are far out of the picture come trade deadline, good also. It will show the management that it is truly time to evaluate the roster and realize what they are doing isn't working and they will make the tough decisions they have to. It's a win/win in my books.
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Last edited by Hockey_Ninja; 01-31-2013 at 01:16 PM.
He's responsible for the state our organization is in right now, which is an utter mess, so no, not forgiven.
Agreed with that too. The trade was so bad and Sutter's history really make you wonder who was pulling the strings on that deal and subsequent franchise sinking deals that followed.
Ken Kling and Co. have gotten off with remarkably little blame.
Conspiracy theories are interesting, but I think the real problem was Darryl Sutter was given autonomy to manage the Flames however he wished, without any interference from the brass. The organization (and a ton of Flames fans) had complete in confidence Sutter, thinking he was a brilliant hockey mind--hence the oft-heard expression, "in Sutter we trust." I have to give where credit is due; Darryl Sutter knows hockey. He was good for the Flames organization. He instilled a winning culture, resurrected an ailing franchise and made it profitable. This is why he was allowed to run the team without interference. Which is great, except Darryl Sutter is no Warren Buffet when it comes to business, and a GM in the NHL has to be good at hockey and business. This accounts for why Jay Feaster is the Flames GM--a person who I have increasing respect for as a GM, something we can argue about in a different thread.
I was unhappy when Dion Phaneuf was traded, but now I'm indifferent. I'm happy he is the captain of the Leafs, but I am relieved he is no Denis Potvin. I'm not surprised that trade gets all the attention and is viewed as the worst. The truth is the real bad trade, not-to-mention the strangest was Olli Jokinen and Brandon Prust for Chris Higgins and Ales Kotalik. I did learn something about the Flames ownership group from Darryl Sutter losing his mind. The ownership will spend to cap ceiling, but they will not bury a contract in the minors. I guess that is fair.
How can you say that with a straight face? Saying Phaneuf hasn't done anything for them when he's their #1 defenseman and captain is simply denial. Has he taken them to the playoffs? No but I don't believe that's how you judge player for player swaps. You judge it based on contribution and Phaneuf contributes in almost 30 minutes ice time per game also Carter Ashton is the player they got for Aulie that is at least a contributor with their farm club.
You are trying to justify your position by stating that a player they got by trading one of the players they got from us is contributing with their farm club. Think about that.
As far as Phaneuf playing 30 minutes a night goes, so did Bouwmeester in the past. Has he been a great player in your view? What about Chris Butler playing big minutes last year?
Dion Phaneuf as Leafs captain reminds me of Todd Simpson as our captain - the guy gets the letter because there is nobody else.
Overall though, I think you are introducing a false dichotomy. I am saying that the Leafs did not fleece the Flames, not that Phaneuf is terrible and worthless and anything else you are implying. I said in the other Phaneuf thread that the dude is trending into a slightly better version of Derek Morris. Which is to say that he will be a serviceable player for a long time. But he is already a shadow of what he was early in his NHL career, and it seems less and less likely that he will ever reach the potential we held for him.
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Saying the Flames strategy is a good one because we could get Brad Richards, when we were unable to get Brad Richards, is something completely different.
