NDP and Quebec Secession

[Bonded]

Apparently the NDP has introduced a bill that will change the manner in which a separation question and vote would work. Don't know if it is really newsworthy but it could mean that there will not be a merger on the left.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle7935340/

[blankall]

The NDP has made a deal with the devil by consolidating their support in Quebec. With the influence of trade unions and the Catholic church in Quebec, the "left" means an entirely different thing there. The Quebec electorate is also extremely fickle. It's only a matter of time until they decide to vote in a Quebec nationalist/seperatist party again.

[CaptainCrunch]

Pretty much vote pandering by Mulcair and the NDP who really opened the door to Quebec separatists entering their party under Jack Layton's blanket admission of candidates in the last election.

Right now there's really not going to be a merger by the Libs and the NDP. Its a Liberal party fantasy if they believe that any merger or agreement would be anything but the absorption of the Liberal Party corpse.

Mulcair is even more anti-liberal party then Harper is, he'd like nothing better then its death leaving the NDP as the sole left wing party in any election.

The change to a 50+1 theoretically is not all that damaging depending on the question.

I'd perfer a tougher question such as.

Would you vote to leave Canada and become a seperate nation if you knew that you couldn't use your Canadian passport, all monies from Canada would stop, all Quebec nationals working for the federal government would be fired, all social services stopped, you'd have to pay a share of the debt and the natives in Quebec could vote to leave and take thier land as well.

On top of that all Canadian government to private business contracts would be immediately terminated, especially those contracts involving national defense or federal government procurements.

Oh and your Quebec hydro contracts would be null and subject to renegotiation.

Would you still want to seperate?

[GirlySports]

Give them their own currency called "The Frog"

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Pretty much vote pandering by Mulcair and the NDP who really opened the door to Quebec separatists entering their party under Jack Layton's blanket admission of candidates in the last election.

Right now there's really not going to be a merger by the Libs and the NDP. Its a Liberal party fantasy if they believe that any merger or agreement would be anything but the absorption of the Liberal Party corpse.

Mulcair is even more anti-liberal party then Harper is, he'd like nothing better then its death leaving the NDP as the sole left wing party in any election.

The change to a 50+1 theoretically is not all that damaging depending on the question.

I'd perfer a tougher question such as.

Would you vote to leave Canada and become a seperate nation if you knew that you couldn't use your Canadian passport, all monies from Canada would stop, all Quebec nationals working for the federal government would be fired, all social services stopped, you'd have to pay a share of the debt and the natives in Quebec could vote to leave and take thier land as well.

On top of that all Canadian government to private business contracts would be immediately terminated, especially those contracts involving national defense or federal government procurements.

Oh and your Quebec hydro contracts would be null and subject to renegotiation.

Would you still want to seperate?

You forgot the dairy board. The rest of Canada would stop overpaying for Quebec milk, eggs and cheese.

If they want to hold a vote though I think the terms really do need to be laid out before hand. If the population really doesn't want to be a part of Canada then there is no sense in forcing them, but they have to know what that means.

I wonder how the aboriginal bands would work. Would the reserves stay part of Canada or would they go out with Quebec?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'd perfer a tougher question such as.

Would you vote to leave Canada and become a seperate nation if you knew that you couldn't use your Canadian passport, all monies from Canada would stop, all Quebec nationals working for the federal government would be fired, all social services stopped, you'd have to pay a share of the debt and the natives in Quebec could vote to leave and take thier land as well.

On top of that all Canadian government to private business contracts would be immediately terminated, especially those contracts involving national defense or federal government procurements.

Oh and your Quebec hydro contracts would be null and subject to renegotiation.

Would you still want to seperate?

You mean make it clear that they will actually lose the benefits of being in Canada? I think that sepera-tits think that they will get their own government and the money from Canada.

[polak]

Yeah I echo the general sentiments in this thread so far.

If they want out, then fine by me, but I want to cut off all support to them. ZERO extra treatment that we wouldn't give another forigen nation.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't think we could stop them from adopting our currency, which would actually be really bad for a dollar value wise.

Its just funny that the Liberal's are still talking that merger of the left. Right now the Liberal's are in the politically irrelevant area that the Cons were after Mulrooney left office, they would literally have no real seats at the table.

In a election strategy the NDP are going to try to run candidates across the board, so you would see very few true lib candidates in the next election if they wanted to prevent vote splitting.

Its just a bad idea from the Liberal's who are like a rickity hockey team, they need to blow it up, re-invent their philosophy, get a good leader (Space man Marc) and bounce the red liberal's from the party.

[CaptainCrunch]

The biggest thing with Quebec seperating is Canda has some interesting tools in any negotation.

IE membership in the North American Free Trade Act would have to be approved by all members which means if Quebec for example refused to pay their share of the debt they would be left out of trade in North America.

The St Lawrence is property of Canada and would not revert to Quebec under the terms of a separation so if Quebec decided to charge a toll on Canadian's driving through the province Canada could put a through toll on shipping.

[FlamesAddiction]

Quebec issue aside, anything that kills a potential merger is good news. As a small "l" liberal, I would rather have the Conservatives in power than see the Liberal Party go that far left.

[MarchHare]

Its just funny that the Liberal's are still talking that merger of the left.

They are?

[CaptainCrunch]

To an extent it keeps popping up from the backroom of either a direct merger, or a voting agreement where the NDP and Liberal's and Greens agree not to compete in an election

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To an extent it keeps popping up from the backroom of either a direct merger, or a voting agreement where the NDP and Liberal's and Greens agree not to compete in an election

Which, if any, of the Liberal leadership candidates is running on a platform of merging with the NDP?

Also, in last year's NDP leadership race, only one candidate (Nathan Cullen) was open to merging with the Liberals. Mulcair opposed a merger when directly questioned on the subject.

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Give them their own currency called "The Frog"

3 frogs for a split pea soup

[SebC]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Quebec issue aside, anything that kills a potential merger is good news. As a small "l" liberal, I would rather have the Conservatives in power than see the Liberal Party go that far left.

A merged party would have to fight the Conservatives for the median voter. With vote-splitting, the median voter is currently excluded from the government.

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Which, if any, of the Liberal leadership candidates is running on a platform of merging with the NDP?

None, but Joyce Murray is actively campaigning on "co-operation".

[c.t.ner]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To an extent it keeps popping up from the backroom of either a direct merger, or a voting agreement where the NDP and Liberal's and Greens agree not to compete in an election

There's lots of talk about this idea, but it's more of a one election coalition idea. Where the three parties would unite, pool resources, push through election reform to get ride of FPTP and then go back to their usual tribes. I know May is strongly behind this and one of the non-JT liberal candidates has suggested the same idea.

I get the feeling that this is a gift to the Liberals if anything (and by proxy a gift to Harper and the Conservatives). It weakens the overall appeal of the NDP as a left of center alternative to the Liberals. Something like this is going to frighten anyone who was leaning towards the NDP with strong unity beliefs. The Liberals will be able to play the we're the only party that will keep the country together card.

If anything, I really have to question Muclair as leader of the NDP, they had a real opportunity to make up some ground between now and 2015, but ideas like this aren't going to fly for the average Canadian.

[mykalberta]

I dont think the Liberals are dead. Yah they are wounded and they have some internal budget issues to work out but lets say had the Bloc won the seats in Quebec instead of the NDP, I dont think people would be pronouncing the death of the Liberals so quickly.

They do have some fundraising issues to work out but they still have a strong brand and with the right leader (not sure who that is) they could easily be back in the fold.

For a down-the-middle voter to vote Conservative or Liberal given the way the wind blows is one thing. But for that voter to vote NDP or Green outside of the big cities, that is still an unknown outside of Quebec.

Ontario and BC Liberal provincial governments havent helped the Federal party out alot and that was normally the strength. I think you will likely see 1 more election where Quebec gets some decent NDP support but if all they can muster is minority in a majority gov then its probable that QC voters will give the Libs or Bloc another try.

IMO

[puffnstuff]

Just wondering at what point does the rest of Canada get to call a vote, amongst ourselves, about whether we want Quebec to stay?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Give them their own currency called "The Frog"

We should send all our pennies over

[Knut]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

Just wondering at what point does the rest of Canada get to call a vote, amongst ourselves, about whether we want Quebec to stay?

I was thinking that... but it would likely be a 80-20 split or better for them to stay... which could embolden them to blackmail us more.