Shellfish may feel pain when cooked

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Bah. How do you feel about modern agricultural practices, without which, it would be impossible to feed the Earth's current and future population? Are pesticides, fertilizers, deforestation for farming space etc. necessary evils (not to mention genetically modified crops to allow hardier crop with extended growth cycles)? Are you really going to get all high and mighty about eating meat and ignore all the modern requirements for a vegetarian diet?

I recognize the arguments for using meat resources for purely agricultural means, but the holier than thou arguments of vegetarians is such hypocritical BS.

WHAT?!?!!?

The reason I BECAME a vegetarian was because of environmental concerns. Eating a meat based diet means needing to use EVEN MORE PESTICIDES, FERTILIZER, CLEARING MORE LAND. If everyone ate a more plant based diet, we would be using LESS of these intrusive, environmentally destructive methods.

My ethics, in all things, is trying to live a decent life while causing the least amount of suffering. When given choice A and choice B I weight the pros and cons of what will cause the least destruction/harm. And in the case of diet, looking at the science, eating a plant based diet generally causes less harm than a meat based diet. Both environmentally and physical suffering.

[JazzyFlame]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Bah. How do you feel about modern agricultural practices, without which, it would be impossible to feed the Earth's current and future population? Are pesticides, fertilizers, deforestation for farming space etc. necessary evils (not to mention genetically modified crops to allow hardier crop with extended growth cycles)? Are you really going to get all high and mighty about eating meat and ignore all the modern requirements for a vegetarian diet?

I recognize the arguments for using meat resources for purely agricultural means, but the holier than thou arguments of vegetarians is such hypocritical BS.

I don't see anything holier then though about being a vegetarian, I do feel meat eaters are indimitated by them. Kinda like smokers envy of people who have quit.

I'm a meatarian FYI

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Zethrynn

Having sex is enjoyable. So by logic we shouldn't eat meat, kick dogs or have sex.

Some perverts find raping women enjoyable. Therefore all sex should be avoided. Unless there is a way of having sex without raping women.

If there is a way of finding happiness and joy in life without causing harm and suffering, fill your boots I say!!

[dammage79]

Wow, this got out of hand quickly. Simple Facts, everything dies. Food chains exist. Spiders suck and will be killed on sight. I would have been more shocked if the original story said "Shellfish don't feel pain while being cooked" That would've been news to me. It's fine and dandy to "respect other lifeforms" but to save spiders or other insects that heavily out-populate the human race is a very very silly argument. I dare you to stand on top of a fire ant hill and tell me if they all think the same as you. They won't, and they will kill you.


As for the Vegan's and Vegetarians. Your choice to live that lifestyle, that's cool. But majority of you pompous people cannot for the life of you let other people enjoy their personal preferences. Much like the posters here going overboard with their arguments. We get it, you don't like meat. Well I do and I care nothing for your zealous ranting and droning on and on about your lifestyle and how you believe it is better. Again, I repeat myself here, it's fine, live your life the way you want. But don't annoy the crap out of everyone else who doesn't agree with you.

[puckluck2]

I'm a meatarian and have never in my life ate a vegetable.

Kicking your dog is exactly like eating vegetables since I'm still alive today meaning I don't need vegetables to survive.

[JazzyFlame]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Wow, this got out of hand quickly. Simple Facts, everything dies. Food chains exist. Spiders suck and will be killed on sight. I would have been more shocked if the original story said "Shellfish don't feel pain while being cooked" That would've been news to me. It's fine and dandy to "respect other lifeforms" but to save spiders or other insects that heavily out-populate the human race is a very very silly argument. I dare you to stand on top of a fire ant hill and tell me if they all think the same as you. They won't, and they will kill you.


As for the Vegan's and Vegetarians. Your choice to live that lifestyle, that's cool. But majority of you pompous people cannot for the life of you let other people enjoy their personal preferences. Much like the posters here going overboard with their arguments. We get it, you don't like meat. Well I do and I care nothing for your zealous ranting and droning on and on about your lifestyle and how you believe it is better. Again, I repeat myself here, it's fine, live your life the way you want. But don't annoy the crap out of everyone else who doesn't agree with you.

I don't get the hate for vegetarians, you preach the opposite of what they do you are equally pompus.

More then 3/4 of my family are vegetarians but they never preach to me.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Iginla

I'm a meatarian and have never in my life ate a vegetable.

Kicking your dog is exactly like eating vegetables since I'm still alive today meaning I don't need vegetables to survive.

Veggies - what food eats, according to my husband.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by JazzyFlame

I don't see anything holier then though about being a vegetarian...

I do in a way.

Let's look at recent threads about gay rights. Those who are for gay marriage believe that they are in the right and therefore better people than those that are against gay marriage.

We all feel that our ethics are the right ones. We all feel that if we have decided ethically that A is the right choice, we thing our choice is better than someone who has chosen B. We feel that we are more ethical than the person that has chosen B. And I think that's okay. I think someone who believes that gays should be able to marry ARE more ethical than those that think gay marriage should be banned.

What I think gets people's dander's up is when someone pushes their ethical beliefs on others. I didn't start this thread. I don't bring up my vegetarianism unless someone else brings the subject up. I live my life and let others live theirs and decide what is right and wrong for themselves. However, WHEN THE TOPIC COMES UP, I'll discuss the reasonings behind those beliefs.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by JazzyFlame

I don't see anything holier then though about being a vegetarian, I do feel meat eaters are indimitated by them. Kinda like smokers envy of people who have quit.

I'm a meatarian FYI

There is nothing holier than thou about being a vegetarian. There is everything holier than thou when they start yammering about carnivores being horrible, unethical people. I am in no way envious of, or intimidated by, a vegetarian. Good for them. I don't criticize their diet, and would prefer if they give me the same courtesy. I come from a omnivorous diet and gain nutrition fom meat and enjoy the culinary aspects.

I just don't see how animals bred for consumption (by selective breeding, modified diets, antibiotics, controlled environments etc.) is so much different than plant products bred for consumption (by cross species breeding, pesticides, fertilizers, irrigation). Anyway you slice it, it's all a direct result of human meddling with the natural order. How many of the common vegetables and legumes we commonly consume now were initially produced exclusively by nature? How much have they changed since that time?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

There is nothing holier than thou about being a vegetarian. There is everything holier than thou when they start yammering out carnivores being horrible, unethical people. I am in no way envious of, or intimidated by, a vegetarian. Good for them. I don't criticize their diet, and would prefer if they give me the same courtesy. I come from a omnivorous diet and gain nutrition fom meat and enjoy the culinary aspects.

What I don't like is when I kick my dog, I get all kinds of nasty looks. Some people are just downright rude. I don't understand why they think they can criticize what I do.

People who choose not to kick their dogs... well good for them. I don't criticize their choices in life. And I would appreciate them not criticizing what I do.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Some perverts find raping women enjoyable. Therefore all sex should be avoided. Unless there is a way of having sex without raping women.

If there is a way of finding happiness and joy in life without causing harm and suffering, fill your boots I say!!

The point I was making is one is not related to the other. Enjoying meat is not the same as kicking animals.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

What is the difference between feeling pain when cooked vs feeling pain when slaughtered....

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by JazzyFlame

I don't get the hate for vegetarians, you preach the opposite of what they do you are equally pompus.

More then 3/4 of my family are vegetarians but they never preach to me.

I preach nothing of the opposite. I am not force feeding my views on anyone. And in my experiences with HUNDREDS of Vegans (vast majority) and yes, even some Vegetarians (note, not all.) Conversations are very "preachy" about their choices and come off as elitest. Hipsters, Vegans and Hippies care about what they believe in but really do go overboard to make any conversation very condescending towards people who do not share their point of view. Again, live the life the way you want, and let me live mine the way I want. I'm not affecting your life in any sort of way by eating a steak on my dime and my time.

[Devils'Advocate]

The point I was making is one is not related to the other. Enjoying meat is not the same as kicking animals.

I'm still not getting that one.

It is possible to live life without meat, but people choose not to because they ENJOY eating meat more.

It is possible to live life without kicking a dog, but may I choose to do so because I ENJOY kicking dogs.

There are very few people that actually NEED meat to survive.

[JazzyFlame]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I preach nothing of the opposite. I am not force feeding my views on anyone. And in my experiences with HUNDREDS of Vegans (vast majority) and yes, even some Vegetarians (note, not all.) Conversations are very "preachy" about their choices and come off as elitest. Hipsters, Vegans and Hippies care about what they believe in but really do go overboard to make any conversation very condescending towards people who do not share their point of view. Again, live the life the way you want, and let me live mine the way I want. I'm not affecting your life in any sort of way by eating a steak on my dime and my time.

Vegans completely different type of people, nearly cultesque when organized.

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

What I don't like is when I kick my dog, I get all kinds of nasty looks. Some people are just downright rude. I don't understand why they think they can criticize what I do.

People who choose not to kick their dogs... well good for them. I don't criticize their choices in life. And I would appreciate them not criticizing what I do.

Look, by this logic I don't care if you beat your dog. Do whatever you want. The second you come to beat MY dog, we'll have a problem.

[JazzyFlame]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

There is nothing holier than thou about being a vegetarian. There is everything holier than thou when they start yammering about carnivores being horrible, unethical people. I am in no way envious of, or intimidated by, a vegetarian. Good for them. I don't criticize their diet, and would prefer if they give me the same courtesy. I come from a omnivorous diet and gain nutrition fom meat and enjoy the culinary aspects.

I just don't see how animals bred for consumption (by selective breeding, modified diets, antibiotics, controlled environments etc.) is so much different than plant products bred for consumption (by cross species breeding, pesticides, fertilizers, irrigation). Anyway you slice it, it's all a direct result of human meddling with the natural order. How many of the common vegetables and legumes we commonly consume now were initially produced exclusively by nature? How much have they changed since that time?

It just comes from a persons set values and principles.... which in turn lead to reason and belief. I believe by eating meat I am doing no good, and this is a direct result of my values and principles.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Kybosh

Look, by this logic I don't care if you beat your dog. Do whatever you want. The second you come to beat MY dog, we'll have a problem.

*EXACTLY*. So long as you have no problem with me kicking my dog, we're all good.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I'm still not getting that one.

It is possible to live life without meat, but people choose not to because they ENJOY eating meat more.

It is possible to live life without kicking a dog, but may I choose to do so because I ENJOY kicking dogs.

There are very few people that actually NEED meat to survive.

But there is absolutely no benefits to your health by kicking dogs.
There is benefits to eating meat( fish and fish oil being the obvious ones,even red meats in proper portions I am sure has some health benefits). so comparing one to the other to me anyways is like comparing apples to oranges.

I do understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't think it is the right comparison.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I'm still not getting that one.

It is possible to live life without meat, but people choose not to because they ENJOY eating meat more.

It is possible to live life without kicking a dog, but may I choose to do so because I ENJOY kicking dogs.

There are very few people that actually NEED meat to survive.

Humans, through process of evolution, are omnivores. Our teeth alone are a testament to this fact. There is no need to be a herbivore and there is no need to be an omnivore or a straight up canrivore. It is the power of choice. Kicking a dog for the pure enjoyment of is a ridiculous comparison to the dining habits of the entire human race.

I get your attempt to relate kicking a dog to killing something for a meal but its an unbalanced argument. Outlandish and nearly impossible to even argue on the basis that a very very very small (miniscule i.e you and maybe twenty or thirty other crazy humans) minority actually choose this lifestyle where the vast majority of humans do eat meat and do rightfully choose to do so.

Malaysians kill puppies for the tenderness of the meat. I find it distasteful but I've never immersed myself in their culture to fully understand why they do it so I won't go and lobby to save the malaysian puppies and remove their food source that they choose to enjoy.