The Ongoing Dog Attack Mega-Thread

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Well on Global they interviewed the guy with the pitbulls and he said it was the great pyrenese's fault.

I am sure he did.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by fotze

Its a classic he shed, she shed tale. hardyharhar.

he shred, she shred since it has pitbulls involved.

[morgin]

There is no blameless party here. One guy shouldnt have had three dogs out on a walk together if he was incapable of controlling them should they choose to ignore him. This could have been pitbulls or golden retrievers and he'd still be to blame if he couldnt keep them under control. The outcome is obviously usually much worse when a dog with as much power as a pitbull attacks but if this had been three goldens attacking and the result ended up being the same we'd be looking to the guy controlling them asking wtf, just as we should here. He was responsible for keeping them under control and he did not do so.

Similarily, the owners who had their dogs off-leash and allowed them to approach a pack of pitbulls handled by one dude are also at fault, especially if their dogs initiated (even if they were "playing"). Your dog should never be allowed to approach a leashed dog without asking the owner if its ok to introduce them. What if it was a rescue dog being rehabilitated? This happens way too often and people just assume if they are in a dog park that they can take out the cellphone and let their dogs run around and play and that every other dog there is lassie.

Feel awful for everyone involved but there are so many things everyone involved did wrong that to just go "oh yeah, another pitbull attack" is focusing on one part (albeit a very legitimate one) of a much larger clusterfata.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by fotze

Who are these people that are able to control every movement of their dog with high accuracy. I've probably seen 3 or 4 in all the years of going to dog parks and its a super old dog or a military precision dog that does not leave the owners side, inwhich case, not much point in going to the off-leash park anyway.

If you are taking leashed dogs to the off-leash dog park and expect the off leash dogs to not come up to your dogs, that is an outlandishly unrealistic expectation. That would require all dog owners and dogs to go on intensive 7 day a week training for the first 2 years of the dogs life. Take 10 dogs and their owners and 9.9 of them could not guarantee that they would not go fart around your leashed dog.

Also, a leashed dog is a dog that is less able to defend itself, some of them are not cool with it when other unleashed dogs are around. They are cornered.

Most people who I know that go to those off-leash areas do so because they want their dog to have some interaction with other dogs.

No matter what party here instigated this, I have a hard time believing that the actions of the pitbulls were reasonable or acceptable. A dog nipping at another dog at a dark park is an acceptable risk to most dog owners I would bet (whether their dog is the victim or not). A dog tearing another dog almost in half... not acceptable. If that is how a dog responds to another dog being nippy, then put her down. By the sounds of it, the dog that was torn up the most was a bystander.

[morgin]

Originally Posted by fotze

If you are taking leashed dogs to the off-leash dog park and expect the off leash dogs to not come up to your dogs, that is an outlandishly unrealistic expectation.

Also, a leashed dog is a dog that is less able to defend itself, some of them are not cool with it when other unleashed dogs are around. They are cornered.

Owner of leashed dog needs to be able to control their dog if unleashed dogs come up. Owners of unleashed dogs need to be able to recall their dogs such that they don't go up to leashed dogs.

There are plenty of people going to off-leash parks and letting their dogs run around who should not be there.

That would require all dog owners and dogs to go on intensive 7 day a week training for the first 2 years of the dogs life. Take 10 dogs and their owners and 9.9 of them could not guarantee that they would not go fart around your leashed dog.

If you are going to take your dog out in public where it will be out of your control (which includes being too big for you to handle on its leash), then yes, dog owners should actively and continously train their dogs. Why shouldn't they have to? Dogs are living, breathing, intelligent and creative thinking and need to be taught what is good and bad behavior with constant reinforcement on a daily basis. If people don't like that requirement of being a dog owner, don't own a dog.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Most people who I know that go to those off-leash areas do so because they want their dog to have some interaction with other dogs.

No matter what party here instigated this, I have a hard time believing that the actions of the pitbulls were reasonable or acceptable. A dog nipping at another dog at a dark park is an acceptable risk to most dog owners I would bet (whether their dog is the victim or not). A dog tearing another dog almost in half... not acceptable. If that is how a dog responds to another dog being nippy, then put her down. By the sounds of it, the dog that was torn up the most was a bystander.

A yappy bystander, but still one that did not deserve death.

[morgin]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Most people who I know that go to those off-leash areas do so because they want their dog to have some interaction with other dogs.

No matter what party here instigated this, I have a hard time believing that the actions of the pitbulls were reasonable or acceptable. A dog nipping at another dog at a dark park is an acceptable risk to most dog owners I would bet (whether their dog is the victim or not). A dog tearing another dog almost in half... not acceptable. If that is how a dog responds to another dog being nippy, then put her down. By the sounds of it, the dog that was torn up the most was a bystander.

Yup. But they were in a pack (and it sounds like they weren't dogs who lived with each other, so may not have been totally comfortable with each other anyway), and once one of them started, that was that. More blame lies with the caretaker for those pitbulls for being unable to control them. Muzzles in this case would have been a pretty good idea.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by morgin

Yup. But they were in a pack (and it sounds like they weren't dogs who lived with each other, so may not have been totally comfortable with each other anyway), and once one of them started, that was that. More blame lies with the caretaker for those pitbulls for being unable to control them. Muzzles in this case would have been a pretty good idea.

Weren't 2 of the 3 dogs not even his? I am not going to defend the guy walking the pitbulls too much as I haven't a clue... But... I would feel terrible enough if I was walking a friend/neighbours dogs and this happened without having the rage of a nation coming down on me. I am trying to give benefit of the doubt.

Honestly, seeing a kid who got attacked by a large dog though really nails it home for me that we need to stop humanizing dogs. They are amazing, fun, affectionate and loving but they are still not humans. These Pitbulls didn't pre-plan this attack, they aren't evil or racist against Pomeranians. They are dogs, with dog instincts. Training can help overcome those instincts to a large degree, but situations like this make it painfully evident that there is no 100%. There are risks involved with dogs and NO ONE can ever say they know 100% that their dog would never attack another person or pet.

And I love my dog.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by morgin

If you are going to take your dog out in public where it will be out of your control (which includes being too big for you to handle on its leash), then yes, dog owners should actively and continously train their dogs. Why shouldn't they have to? Dogs are living, breathing, intelligent and creative thinking and need to be taught what is good and bad behavior with constant reinforcement on a daily basis. If people don't like that requirement of being a dog owner, don't own a dog.

I agree... its a really good idea for a dog owners to take a manditory training class.

To expand, a person should have a manditory class and should have to buy an licenese to attend the "off leash" parks. Fee would help to develop classes and maintain the parks.

As for off leash areas, unfortanetely there are numerous stories of dog fights at off leash areas. For those that visit the off leash areas on an regular basis its very comman to see an "aggressive" dog....

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheGrimm

Honestly, seeing a kid who got attacked by a large dog though really nails it home for me that we need to stop humanizing dogs. They are amazing, fun, affectionate and loving but they are still not humans. These Pitbulls didn't pre-plan this attack, they aren't evil or racist against Pomeranians. They are dogs, with dog instincts. Training can help overcome those instincts to a large degree, but situations like this make it painfully evident that there is no 100%. There are risks involved with dogs and NO ONE can ever say they know 100% that their dog would never attack another person or pet.

.

I agree with your overall point, but "dog instincts" is even a little vague. Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years for specific purposes. Dogs with particular genetic traits were chosen to breed with dogs with similar traits which has created different genetic dispositions and instincts. Some breeds were created for work or companionship, and some for guarding or fighting (like pitbulls). Instincts for different breeds depend on why the breeds were created in the first place (ie. the instictual trigger for defense and aggression is going to be a lot more tuned in a fighting dog than other breeds). Just like dogs that were bred for hunting will often have the urge to chase things, or a dog that was bred for burrowing will have the urge to dig. Removing these traits through training is not always possible. I would even argue that is unfair to put them under the stress. Like you said, they aren't humans that can control their urges with reason.

Training does play a role, but it can never overcome genetics. Some pitbull breeders are trying to only breed the gentler individuals to remove the aggression traits, but it takes a long time to do.


The same thing is true with cats. Siamese cats often display similar character traits to other Siamese cats, same with tabbies, Persian, etc... Humans have changed both species in ways that removed them from nature.

[flamesfever]

I find that the socializing at the dogwalk area can involve, from time to time, all types of fairly unacceptable behaviour. This may include younger dogs that play too aggressively, alphas that want to hump other dogs, and even the odd dog squabble. Fortunately almost all of us understand that in order to successfully socialize our dogs we occasionally have to put up with these types of behaviour, and we leave it up to the dogs to sort things out, which they invariably do. The general rule is that everything is okay, unless you have a dog that uses it's teeth in the process.

However, where it involves a pit bull, the sorting out process can become quite dangerous, because of the powerful jaws and strength of the dog in comparison with others, coupled with the unpredictable behavior of some pit bulls.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I agree with your overall point, but "dog instincts" is even a little vague. Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years for specific purposes. Dogs with particular genetic traits were chosen to breed with dogs with similar traits which has created genetic dispositions. Some breeds were created for work or companionship, and some for guarding or fighting (like pitbulls). Instincts for different breeds depend on why the breeds were created in the first place (ie. the instictual trigger for defense and aggression is going to be a lot more tuned in a fighting dog than other breeds). Just like dogs that were bred for hunting will often have the urge to chase things, or a dog that was bred for burrowing will have the urge to dig. Removing these traits through training is not always possible. I would even argue that is unfair to put them under the stress. Like you said, they aren't humans that can control their urges with reason.

Training does play a role, but it can never overcome genetics. Some pitbull breeders are trying to only breed the gentler individuals to remove the aggression traits, but it takes a long time to do.


The same thing is true with cats. Siamese cats often display similar character traits to other Siamese cats, same with tabbies, Persian, etc... Humans have changed both species in ways that removed them from nature.

I agree, "dog instincts" is definitely vague, as is my understanding of what those are. You definitely can't paint all dog breeds with the same brush just as you can't paint all individual dogs within a breed the same. They are individuals, our Boxer is leery of chocolate labs ever since he was a puppy. He was attacked twice by the same lab on different dates at an offleash park and he never treated them the same after this. He gets nervous and defensive when they are around and has growled and snapped at them on occasion. He also does not take well to being mounted by dominant males and will growl and snap if they mount him (this is not biting mind you, but more of a "display"). My point is, I don't know how my dog will react in every situation and while it is my responsibility to work with him and try and correct these behaviours, it is equally my responsibility to keep him from situations where his instincts will cause issues.

At the end of the day I don't think there is a smoking gun or an easy fix. If we can encourage and enforce responsible pet ownership I think a lot of these issues could be minimized, but NEVER completely eliminated while we co-habitate with animals.

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by fotze

True dat. The best thing that we ever did to train our dog (including multiple courses) was for it to get asskicked at the off-leash park. Any person I know whose dog sucks, did not take it to the offleash park to get taught by the older dogs.

It's great that worked out for you guys, but our dog had the inverse reaction to getting his ass kicked.

[HerbalMagic]

Originally Posted by fotze

True dat. The best thing that we ever did to train our dog (including multiple courses) was for it to get asskicked at the off-leash park. Any person I know whose dog sucks, did not take it to the offleash park to get taught by the older dogs.

Its irresponsible owners who "asskick" their dogs that end up with aggressive dogs...

[TheGrimm]

Originally Posted by fotze

Guess it depends on the kicking. I still remember it was a wise old dog that kept pinning our dog when it was being all that. Aggresive but no biting. Those dog owners should rent them out to new dog owners.

I am always so impressed by those dogs that are so submissive they roll over and submit to any sign of aggression. As the owner of a dog who doesn't respond well to it, it's so nice to see. We've tried a lot of techniques to get our guy to mellow out, he LOVES to play with other dogs but whenever a dominant male comes in with it's head high and it's chest puffed out I have to reign him in. It's this very reason that we can't go to the dog park anymore, we used to love it there. I am fairly confident our dog wouldn't bite another dog, but the way he reacts is so verbal and aggressive that I don't want to take the chance.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by fotze

Guess it depends on the kicking. I still remember it was a wise old dog that kept pinning our dog when it was being all that. Aggresive but no biting. Those dog owners should rent them out to new dog owners.

You should start a CP Dog Fight Club. I'm going to borrow my friend's akita. Now thats one unpredictable dog!

[pylon]

Originally Posted by fotze

Who are these people that are able to control every movement of their dog with high accuracy. I've probably seen 3 or 4 in all the years of going to dog parks and its a super old dog or a military precision dog that does not leave the owners side, inwhich case, not much point in going to the off-leash park anyway.

If you are taking leashed dogs to the off-leash dog park and expect the off leash dogs to not come up to your dogs, that is an outlandishly unrealistic expectation. That would require all dog owners and dogs to go on intensive 7 day a week training for the first 2 years of the dogs life. Take 10 dogs and their owners and 9.9 of them could not guarantee that they would not go fart around your leashed dog.

Also, a leashed dog is a dog that is less able to defend itself, some of them are not cool with it when other unleashed dogs are around. They are cornered.

LOL, my miniature Dachshund looks like a rogue torpedo that lost it's target at the dog park. But it is different with a smaller dog. You don't have to worry about her killing someone if she gets pissed. And that is the entire argument here:

-You get attacked by a 10 pound wiener dog, you have a mildly upsetting incident which one day turns into hilariously awesome scar on your ankle story.

-You get attacked by the Pitbull, you get to live the rest of your life without a lower jaw and you get to speak through on of those neck microphones.

My dog has gotten aggressive with people before where she has bared her teeth, and made a lunge, and it is as simple as a quick yank with my finger on her leash, and she is done. That is not realistic with a attack dog.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by pylon

LOL, my miniature Dachshund looks like a rogue torpedo that lost it's target at the dog park. But it is different with a smaller dog. You don't have to worry about her killing someone if she gets pissed. And that is the entire argument here:

-You get attacked by a 10 pound wiener dog, you have a mildly upsetting incident which one day turns into hilariously awesome scar on your ankle story.

-You get attacked by the Pitbull, you get to live the rest of your life without a lower jaw and you get to speak through on of those neck microphones.

My dog has gotten aggressive with people before where she has bared her teeth, and made a lunge, and it is as simple as a quick yank with my finger on her leash, and she is done. That is not realistic with a attack dog.

I totally agree with this. If your dog was yappy and you lived next door to me it would annoy the fata out of me, but at least it wouldn't be scary. I have to make sure my neighbour's rotties, and various other giant dogs are secured in their yard before I can let my kids play on our front lawn, which is ridiculous.

[Regulator75]

^^^ On the front lawn??? Your neighbours let them roam freely out front?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I totally agree with this. If your dog was yappy and you lived next door to me it would annoy the fata out of me, but at least it wouldn't be scary. I have to make sure my neighbour's rotties, and various other giant dogs are secured in their yard before I can let my kids play on our front lawn, which is ridiculous.

And I can empathize with your situation if you have Rottweilers next door with small children. I would be very cautious too.