Monument to Vietnam deserters draws fire

[RougeUnderoos]

I've dealt with two Viet Nam veterans in my life and both of them said if they had known what they were in for, they would have "run" to Canada.

One of them did "run" to Canada eventually. He returned to US after having killed lots of people and packed up and moved to Canada and literally, (he made a point out of it), never returned. Does that qualify him as a coward?

The other guy is now a 60 year old man. I came to know him through work. He was a student of mine, and while I was teaching him how to read we meandered off-topic and discussed his past. I told him that I would have been a "coward" and run-away had I been selected to go fight in that war. He told me he wished he had thought of that. But he had learned how to be a kick-ass mechanic while in the Army, so at least he got that out of it.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Good post 'Roos.

While I think a monument is a kind of stupid, I have a hard time condemning what were very young men from running from service that at the time looked like a one way ticket to the meat wagon. That's a very scary situation that I can't imagine being in. These weren't volunteers.

At the same time, I think condemning those who did serve as baby killers and spitting on them upon their return home is pretty dastardly to put it lightly.

As one poster said, he has no respect for those who thought the war was wrong but "went and killed Vietnamese anyway". Well, running from a call to service by your country could be viewed by the very same person as equally wrong. Quite a dilema they found themselves in. Once they got there, however, 'killing Vietnamnese (as if they jumped on the beach and started killing random people) becomes a little bit easier when they are trying to kill you.

I think some of us in this thread have jumped to conclusions about things we don't have the first clue about.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

The more i think about it I don't think they are cowards, but rather scared young men, and for that I don't blame them one bit. Do I think that there were other options available, other than running away (such as thousands of people making a stand), you bet I do. Think of how effective a form of protest it would be for tens of thousands of men to be sent to prison because of their opposition to the draft.

Do I think they are heroes, deserve their own monument, or anything like that? Not in the least, But I also am thinking now that calling them cowards was a bit to hasty.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 08:31 PM
Think of how effective a form of protest it would be for tens of thousands of men to be sent to prison because of their opposition to the draft.

That makes perfect message-board sense, but in the real world I don't think that applies.

For one thing, I don't think thousands of young men going to prison would have made any difference. For another thing, it sounds like giving people an "option" of going to war or going to jail. Not a whole lot of "freedom", which they would have allegedly been fighting for, involved in that moral quandary.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Ten bucks says this "monument" never gets built.

Nelson is a strange town.

Once this Tofu Bake Sale/Hooka Pipe Swap Meet/Hippie Hoedown dealie is done with, the locals will go back to their other various nutty schemes like petitioning town council to legally recognize Pagan religious holidays and such.

I think folks 'round here are getting overly worked-up over a bunch of nothing.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I was actually getting that from one of the CBC online things that was posted there. I think it was the minister of immigration or someone in a government position stating in no uncertain terms that it would be a good idea for 10s of thousands of these men to go and face prison time for what they believed in.

Although I tend to agree with you in some ways.

[dangler22]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 27 2004, 02:31 AM
The more i think about it I don't think they are cowards, but rather scared young men, and for that I don't blame them one bit. Do I think that there were other options available, other than running away (such as thousands of people making a stand), you bet I do. Think of how effective a form of protest it would be for tens of thousands of men to be sent to prison because of their opposition to the draft.

Do I think they are heroes, deserve their own monument, or anything like that? Not in the least, But I also am thinking now that calling them cowards was a bit to hasty.

I don't see why these men should be labeled cowards for not fighting in a war that was bogus to begin with. I think it takes a lot of guts to stand up for something you believe in (same goes for soldiers who go off to fight). I tell you one thing, prison or not you wouldn't see me fighting a war and killing some poor ethnic person for any reason, unless I was defending my own soil. I wouldn't put my ass on the line unless it was for a DAMN good reason.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Poor ethnic person? The situations would change when this poor ethnic person is trying to blow off your rich white ass. Bogus war, that is something to be debated. Personally I think it served a point in the shaping of the world as we know it (in a good way that is).

The thing is those guys didn't really stand up for what the believed in, they ran away. I think that is a huge difference from going in front of a judge and get thrown in jail. I really respect the people that acted in that manner. I have no real respect for people that ran away to Canada.

[Mike F]

Actually no. I said Palestinians are idiots because they continue to thump their head against the wall for no apparent purpose, engaging in a war that they can't possibly win while condemning their people to a perpetual cycle of poverty and repression in the process. Since the Israeli's have demonstrated in the past they will trade land for peace and have honoured those agreements, I suggested the Palestinians stop shooting and start negotiating seriously. In turn, they would probably get a lot more global sympathy from dickheads like me regarding Israeli tactics, which could only help them, and they would probably have a country by now if they had already done so. That is what I said. Basically, I said the Palestinians are morons.

Ah. Well it's a relief to get such a succinct synopsys. I don't have time for another multi-page battle.

Getting back to the original thought though, will there be statues and memorials in Germany for those who ran the other way? Or do we find that millions of Germans of that era consider them with disdain?

Hard to say. I'd like to think that the documentation of the realities of the ethnic cleansing would have shocked some "sense" into them (from our perspective), but I think it's safe to say that if the Nazis had won Schindler's List would have been a much different movie... in the same way that Alberta's beef industry would be portrayed much differently if Hindu's ever take over the world B)

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 08:55 PM
Poor ethnic person? The situations would change when this poor ethnic person is trying to blow off your rich white ass. Bogus war, that is something to be debated. Personally I think it served a point in the shaping of the world as we know it (in a good way that is).

The thing is those guys didn't really stand up for what the believed in, they ran away. I think that is a huge difference from going in front of a judge and get thrown in jail. I really respect the people that acted in that manner. I have no real respect for people that ran away to Canada.

You seem to be debating from a somewhat skewed stance -- as though the Americans had won that particular war.

I agree that it had a role in "shaping the world as we know it", but only in the sense (I bet you'll disagree with this) that it made the higher-ups think more than twice about getting into a crazy war on the other side of the world. Far as I can tell, the lesson passed it's "best before date" about a year and a half ago.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Sep 26 2004, 04:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Sep 26 2004, 04:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Sep 26 2004, 11:44 PM
I sound like a disarmament protestor - except that I didn't say anything about disarmament? I don't follow.

You had said democracies had nothing to worry about from the spread of communism. You labelled said principal democracy an aggressor.

In other words, similar to the rose coloured glasses of a disarmament movement that was more dangerous than it knew. (wait'll Vulcan gets a hold of that one!!)

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Mutual disarmament, I think, went a long way in diffusing the global tensions of the time. Both the West and the USSR were on an uncontrollabel "arms race" and playing a game called "brinkmanship". I like to think that the disarmament movement forced the West into dialogue with the USSR and led to the disarmament agreements. Of course Bush has cancelled those agreements now that the USSR no longer exists and Russia doesn't scare him. I never advocated unilateral disarmament. Yes, I think we were dangerous to the military industrial complex. Viet Nam was a war of independence first against France and when France lost, the USA moved in and tried to set up a puppet govt. The West's spin that this could creat a domino effect and lead to a Communist takeover of SE Asia probably led to Australian participation in Viet Nam. I thought of this war as just another Colonial land grab with the USSR just as bad. The VietNamese had no choice but to get aid from the USSR. The Americans did the same in their revolution by getting aid from France. Their logic is " The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

[Cowperson]

A follow-up to this story: "Nelson reeling from memorial controversy."

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpos...13-67f10ffb8e42

Cowperson

[FlamesAddiction]

Looking back, I would not have used the word "hero" to describe war resisters and dodgers. It's a word that is overused and really has lost a lot of its meaning. Then again, I wouldn't call all people who served "heros" either - but that is a different story.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 27 2004, 06:58 AM
A follow-up to this story: "Nelson reeling from memorial controversy."

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpos...13-67f10ffb8e42

Cowperson

LMFAO. They should put Bush on the memorial, judging by his recent comments of Viet Nam and his avoidance of that war. The irony would be delicious. I bet the people who thought up this idea are rolling on the floor by all of the apoploptic reactions.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Reunion Committee to Reunite War Resisters and Those Who Assisted Them during the Vietnam War, or RCRWRTWATDVW.

Now how does one chant that at a rally....

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 27 2004, 04:36 PM
Reunion Committee to Reunite War Resisters and Those Who Assisted Them during the Vietnam War, or RCRWRTWATDVW.

Now how does one chant that at a rally....

WHAT DO WE WANT . . . . . RCRWRTWATDVW

When do we want it . .. . NOW!!!!!



1-2-3-4- we don't want your stinking RCRWRTWATDVW