2012-2013 Toronto Blue Jays Off Season Thread - Page 50 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

TitovFTW · 12-14-2012, 09:39 PM

I did predict a little bit back that this trade if it it happens will be a lot like the Miami one, Jays are going to want multiple pieces, especially with the leverage they'll have of the Mets not being anywhere close to a win now mode.

There's gonna be some anger from Jays fans because the Jays don't have the MLB talent to make a trade for someone as good as Dickey, and there's gonna be a big prospect or two lost here.

TitovFTW · 12-14-2012, 09:41 PM

I think we just wait and see what the Jays end up doing, if anything. Hard to see a deal not getting done with these type of rumors but there's just nothing clear cut right now as to any of the players involved. And a 38 year old Knuckleballer, is not just another 38 year old pitcher.

Matty81 · 12-14-2012, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitovFTW

Hope you don't mind me playing devils advocate here but here goes.

Edwin Jackson is going to get 5 years and big money. I'd say that's more franchise handicapping then a D'Arnaud for Dickey trade. Especially for a guy who's about as average a pitcher as you can get, but stays healthy.

I think there is value in Dickey for not just one season but 3-4. That's possibly 3-4 seasons of a top of the rotation pitcher. There's some real value there and not just short term, the Jays don't win next season they're screwed in an LAA type of way.

You bring up the trade deadline pitchers, you're likely still going to have to give up value somewhat close to D'Arnaud and you get barely a quarter of service time (from a pitcher none the less) I think there's much more value in a full season of Dickey.

I think a lot of what your saying is fair but you're sort of selling Dickey short IMO. I think I might take him for 3-4 seasons over a #3 or #4 ceiling type of young guy with control.

I understand why if you see Dickey as a 1 or 2 then you do this deal (though even then your top two position prospects at his age is too much IMO), but I simply don't think he's that good. Everyone argues that he's had 3 good years and last year was just a little better and part of the trend. He struck out 100 more batters last year than he ever had in any season of his career. He's a 3 WAR player and not a 5 to me.

Jackson is an erratic bum.. but the rumors are that he'll sign for 4/14. That's one more year than you'd commit to Dickey so I wouldn't say it handcuffs the team. Anyway I'd rather see them not go after either. If they are desperate for another top 5 arm, go after a Gavin Floyd type guy who you could probably land for a couple prospects the calibre of Stilson and who is a 2-3 WAR starter. Why blow up your system for a solid pitcher with one amazing season who is 38... just doesn't make sense.

TitovFTW · 12-14-2012, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matty81

I understand why if you see Dickey as a 1 or 2 then you do this deal (though even then your top two position prospects at his age is too much IMO), but I simply don't think he's that good. Everyone argues that he's had 3 good years and last year was just a little better and part of the trend. He struck out 100 more batters last year than he ever had in any season of his career. He's a 3 WAR player and not a 5 to me.

Jackson is an erratic bum.. but the rumors are that he'll sign for 4/14. That's one more year than you'd commit to Dickey so I wouldn't say it handcuffs the team. Anyway I'd rather see them not go after either. If they are desperate for another top 5 arm, go after a Gavin Floyd type guy who you could probably land for a couple prospects the calibre of Stilson and who is a 2-3 WAR starter. Why blow up your system for a solid pitcher with one amazing season who is 38... just doesn't make sense.

His K Rate at least makes sense due to how nasty his knuckleball was last season. A lot easier to explain IMO, not a big warning sign of regression considering how short of a time he's had the pitch in his arsenal. Be much different if he was still working with the same stuff for those 10 + seasons and then saw a K rate jump that high.

I think we're both on the same wave length here and agree that it's just purely hypothetical arguing right now without knowing what the trade is or could be. If you trade D'Arnaud without having to give up much else in terms of quality prospects, I'm not sure you're blowing your system up there.

TitovFTW · 12-14-2012, 10:05 PM

If I was to pretend to be smart enough to get into AA's mind, his train of thinking must be this in my mind.

The idea was to to improve this offseason with pitching, feel somewhat comfortable that playoffs might be a possibility. You go after Josh Johnson and out of nowhere, Jose Reyes falls into your lap along with Mark Buehurle. You sign arguably the best contract of the offseason in bringing on Melky Cabrera and now you're looking at a really good team. He's talked about having a Jose Bautista might speed along the process at some point. Well you've got one of the best bats in baseball who's going to be leave a huge hole when he's done. If you think Dickey pushes you over the hump and you can win a world series the next 3-4 years, you go for it. You're going to have a high 1st round pick again this season and the years following to keep stockpiling young talent.

I just have to much baseball on the mind and am trying to understand AA in all of this. It's exciting at least, let's see what happens tomorrow

Matty81 · 12-14-2012, 10:07 PM

Yep... sounds like we'll have to wait until tomorrow, will be hoping it's not D'Arnaud involved anyway. Hear your point of view but it would take a lot of the lustre off the offseason for me personally. I really want to see this Jays team evolve back into a perennial contender, not surge for a couple seasons and get sucked back into the pack.

KootenayFlamesFan · 12-14-2012, 10:13 PM

Quote:

While the names in the trade are not finalized, outfielder Anthony Gose is likely to be included in the deal to New York. The Mets also are expected to acquire a catcher, either J.P. Arencibia or Travis d’Arnaud. The rebuilding Mets are said to prefer d’Arnaud because he would come at a lower salary with more years of control than Arencibia.

One source familiar with the talks said d’Arnaud was very much in play as of Friday night. In order to surrender such a coveted prospect, the Blue Jays have sought to expand the deal and involve more players than just Dickey, Gose and d’Arnaud. Toronto general manager Alex Anthopoulos took the same approach last month when the Miami Marlins requested top Blue Jays prospects in trade talks; a 12-player trade was the end result.

While it’s not clear whether the Blue Jays have been granted a window to diccuss a contract extension with Dickey as a condition of the trade, his desire to be signed through 2015 is well known. Dickey’s current contract expires at the end of the coming season. He's believed to be seeking a two-year contract extension in the range of $25 million. The Blue Jays are undoubtedly aware of that price tag; as long as they are comfortable with meeting it they may not think the negotiating window is necessary.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/t...e-trade-121412

TitovFTW · 12-14-2012, 10:23 PM

I'll leave this thread alone so as not to make people keep clicking on it and think there's something to report and it's not just me rambling. The media is so out to lunch here. They have no idea which players are going to be involved. I don't think we will have any idea either until the trade breaks. See you back here tomorrow!

Flickered Flame · 12-14-2012, 10:29 PM

My guys heard it could be anywhere from a 3-7 player deal. They shared a few names but as of now, I can't share those here, at least not yet.

As for the Jays, I knew they'd be busy this winter but to watch them make all these moves while the two heavy spending weights (NY and Boston) just sit by is very surreal. A nice change of pace to MLB.

Sylvanfan · 12-14-2012, 10:30 PM

Wow did Dickey ever see a serious spike in his K rate last year. Basically 100 more strikouts in 25 more innings and the same number of base on balls. Is it the ultimate outlier...or a guy figuring out how to throw the knuckleball? He is an intriguing case, I guess we'll see if he ends up in Toronto.

CaramonLS · 12-14-2012, 10:45 PM

Remember when the Flames were getting Tyler Ennis for Robyn Regehr?

Here is hoping...

403ep3 · 12-14-2012, 11:29 PM

Damn I really hope we don't trade d'arnaud

The Big Chill · 12-15-2012, 12:24 AM

I wouldn't even entertain the idea of including TDA in this deal. I don't know if I value the catcher position higher then other people do, but for me a top catcher is essential to a winning team. JPA simply isn't good enough defensively for us to think that we have that position locked down for the forseeable future.

I wouldn't trade TDA for Dickey straight up. It's JPA plus Gose/Sierra/Rasmus or similar or I walk away from the deal.

Jiggy_12 · 12-15-2012, 12:30 AM

TDA and Gose for Dickey and Niese....I would do that

Jiggy_12 · 12-15-2012, 12:38 AM

The latest, this one from John Heyman:

"Word is, the sides are hoping to finish the trade soon, but no announcement was expected Friday.

While several other teams had been interested in Dickey, the Mets have focused all their attention on the Blue Jays, cutting off their discussions with other teams, sources tell CBSSports.com.

There are suggestions the Blue Jays may have relented to include top prospect, catcher Travis d’Arnaud. The Blue Jays preferred to include J.P. Arencibia, but the Mets have held steady in their demand of d’Arnaud, 23."

nik- · 12-15-2012, 12:45 AM

Ugh, please not for a 38 year old knuckleballer.

evman150 · 12-15-2012, 01:27 AM

If they manage to get Dickey and one of Niese/Davis (esp. Niese) for Gose and TDA, then it's a win for the Blue Jays IMO.

TitovFTW · 12-15-2012, 04:22 AM

Dickey makes 5 million next season, can't overlook how insanely good of a deal that is.

I get how some people could be really upset if D'Arnaud goes the other way, but I don't think it's fair to underrate Dickey and sell him short like so many people are. R.A Dickey makes Ricky Romero your 5th starter!! That's insane to even think of, especially with the projections at the start of the season.

bluejays · 12-15-2012, 06:27 AM

I know we kinda already started this, but if the price involves D'Arnaud in a package, who does everyone think we could be getting back as the other player in addition to Dickey? Niese wouldn't make sense as he'd be a 6th starter on the team and I don't think AA likes to deal from a position of weakness (getting rid of a pitcher). I could see a chance taken on Ike Davis (would be a good project at 1st). Just throwing a name out there. I'm sure there would be other pieces though.

kipperfan · 12-15-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleury

I know we kinda already started this, but if the price involves D'Arnaud in a package, who does everyone think we could be getting back as the other player in addition to Dickey? Niese wouldn't make sense as he'd be a 6th starter on the team and I don't think AA likes to deal from a position of weakness (getting rid of a pitcher). I could see a chance taken on Ike Davis (would be a good project at 1st). Just throwing a name out there. I'm sure there would be other pieces though.

I think the report above (somewhere a few posts up) of it possibly being TDA + Gose + Lind for Dickey + Davis could be pretty close to what ends up happening. I have to say if it does, I am going to be a little down on AA as the farm will have taken a massive hit this offseason and there is still a reasonable chance Dickey doesn't live up to expectation in the ALE. With that said, it would be a amazingly stacked rotation, the likes of which us Jays fans haven't seen since the WS years.