Connecticut School Shooting

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

IF you were to wake up tomorrow and all guns were illegal in all of NA, this type of thing will not stop IMO.

I feel the same way about speed limits and divided lanes on highways.

People are dying anyway so there's really no point.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Huckabee, right on cue for the religious right, says that "God wasn't at the school" because "we've systematically removed Him from school" and this is a predictable consequence of lack-of-fear-of-hell.

Well, he may be right to a certain degree. After all, one of the primary functions of religion is control of peoples hearts and minds (and therefore actions). The 10 Commandments, for instance, was a simple rule book on how to live. When you remove rules, control and fear of consequences it may have a negative impact on a small minority of people. The lies of God and his wrath that we are told throughout are childhoods are intended to keep us in control and following a certain set of rules. In the meantime, we are, at least tacitly, taught that without fear of punishment there are no morals. Unfortunately, when you get old enough to peel back the curtain and remove the lies you may end up rudderless. I have no idea if this is the case in this tragedy.

So Huckabee may be right that having religion taught in this school may have avoided this tragedy, but not why he thinks he's right.

[Flabbibulin]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Of course it would. But I really don't think that would be their next choice of weapons. Kids are damn creative, they'd come up with something else.

IF you were to wake up tomorrow and all guns were illegal in all of NA, this type of thing will not stop IMO. I'd wager the black market for guns would explode if that happened. Guns being smuggled into the US from Mexico and SA would probably skyrocket. I totally agree, nut jobs like this will find a way. If they can't find a gun, they will probably wind up making home made grenades or something.

You are saying they wouldn't stop, but it is hard to argue that they wouldn't decrease considerably. That's a good enough reason for me to start getting tougher on guns.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Flabbibulin

You are saying they wouldn't stop, but it is hard to argue that they wouldn't decrease considerably. That's a good enough reason for me to start getting tougher on guns.

Totally agree. The point I'm trying to get across is gun control is only part of the solution. Again, if guns were suddenly illegal across NA, it's not like all these pyschos are suddenly going to become normal, balanced people again. All you are doing is removing their first choice of tools. The reason for picking up those tools in the first place needs to be addressed and quickly.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Totally agree. The point I'm trying to get across is gun control is only part of the solution. Again, if guns were suddenly illegal across NA, it's not like all these pyschos are suddenly going to become normal, balanced people again. All you are doing is removing their first choice of tools. The reason for picking up those tools in the first place needs to be addressed and quickly.

You also need to address the fact that their first choice of tool is so easy to get. I'm sorry, the arguments to allow people to easily buy a handgun are outdated and moronic. No one is saying that the day after a gun ban all the problems will be solved and all the guns will be gone, but it has to start somewhere and sometime.

[GirlySports]

Just marvelous by Susan Candiotti on CNN claiming that "these are unconfirmed facts that we have to confirm before we report them" after CNN reported unconfirmed information all day.

[pylon]

Yup, all guns used in mass-shootings are illegally obtained.

A law enforcement official familiar with the investigation says the three guns found at the shooting site were legally purchased by Nancy Lanza, the mother of the suspect in the shooting.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Why do I need to address that? I'm not saying at all that the ease of access to hanguns/automatic rifles isn't part of the problem.

I'm saying that ease of access is only part of the issue. If we are going to examine how to stop this from happening again, should we not look at the entire issue?

Handguns/automatic weapons banned....fine, I'll move on to bolt action/lever action rifles and shotguns. Those are banned? Fine, now I'll use homemade explosivse etc....

Lets look at the WHOLE problem, not just part of it.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Minnie

If I hear one more person refer to this as an 'isolated incident' and it's why nothing should be done....

Feck that #####e all to hell and back. These are no longer isolated incidents. Pull yer head outta yer bum and smell the fresh air.

yeah I don't know how killing 20 random kids can be isolated although the location was pre-determined and there was a connection.

But that's a real stretch.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by pylon

Yup, all guns used in mass-shootings are illegally obtained.

[HPLovecraft]

If this guy had a knife, we wouldn't be looking at 20+ dead people.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Why do I need to address that? I'm not saying at all that the ease of access to hanguns/automatic rifles isn't part of the problem.

I'm saying that ease of access is only part of the issue. If we are going to examine how to stop this from happening again, should we not look at the entire issue?

Handguns/automatic weapons banned....fine, I'll move on to bolt action/lever action rifles and shotguns. Those are banned? Fine, now I'll use homemade explosivse etc....

Lets look at the WHOLE problem, not just part of it.

But, you directly implied that guns being easy to obtain made it easier for this situation to happen.

Following that logic, if guns were harder to obtain this situation would have had a lower probability of occuring.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Why do I need to address that? I'm not saying at all that the ease of access to hanguns/automatic rifles isn't part of the problem.

I'm saying that ease of access is only part of the issue. If we are going to examine how to stop this from happening again, should we not look at the entire issue?

Handguns/automatic weapons banned....fine, I'll move on to bolt action/lever action rifles and shotguns. Those are banned? Fine, now I'll use homemade explosivse etc....

Lets look at the WHOLE problem, not just part of it.

It's only part of the issue in the same way that Metal and plastic is only part of a car. It's a MAJOR part of the issue.

As for the second part, that's fine, we can't possibly remove every possible way to kill someone. How about we start with the one you can stuff in your jacket pocket and also the ones designed for theatres of war.

[jhunt223]

Do gun lobbyists/activists travel with security guards and entourages in the states?

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I'm not saying at all that the ease of access to hanguns/automatic rifles isn't part of the problem.

But that is a argument being made (by others) and fought.
Newt Gingrich, during his Presidential run, said that the UN should buy a gun for every citizen of the world.

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Handguns/automatic weapons banned....fine, I'll move on to bolt action/lever action rifles and shotguns. Those are banned? Fine, now I'll use homemade explosivse etc....

This is why the knife-incident in China keeps being brought up.
And the correlation between gun-control and gun violence is being cited.

We have information that strongly suggests that less guns is better.
Sadly, that's really as far as the conversation has gone.

[nik-]

So ... aside from the media being able to latch onto something which allows people to easily dismiss it as "he was crazy" doesn't this seem a little out of step for Autism?

Granted I'm no expert by any stretch, but from what I've seen from Autism, there's a lot of lack of social behaviour and some violent outbursts ... but murder sprees involving several locations? That doesn't seem to fit does it?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Why do I need to address that? I'm not saying at all that the ease of access to hanguns/automatic rifles isn't part of the problem.

I'm saying that ease of access is only part of the issue. If we are going to examine how to stop this from happening again, should we not look at the entire issue?

Handguns/automatic weapons banned....fine, I'll move on to bolt action/lever action rifles and shotguns. Those are banned? Fine, now I'll use homemade explosivse etc....

Lets look at the WHOLE problem, not just part of it.

You cannot stop all murders. That does not mean that you can't reduce them. Reducing guns reduces murders. Why NOT do that instead of claiming people will then stab people at anywhere near the same rate?

[GoinAllTheWay]

Ugh.......guys...I'm not saying there is anything wrong with restricting access. Go ahead, please do. But once done, should we not examine WHY this is happening in the first place? And I"m not talking about murders as a whole, I'm talking about these types of massacres.

Is reducing these rampages all you are after? Of course we can't rid the world of all ways to die. Much like we can't rid the world of firearms.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

You cannot stop all murders. That does not mean that you can't reduce them. Reducing guns reduces murders. Why NOT do that instead of claiming people will then stab people at anywhere near the same rate?

I have no clue if there's any use for this in this topic, but I got bored after my exam today and made this using UN Crime data and a 2007 report by Cambridge estimating small arms ownership rates. The crime data is 12 years old, so please take it with a grain of salt:

The blue dots are sample developed nations. The red is USA.

The top graph asks whether more guns strongly impact how many gun deaths occur annually in the nation. It seems to be not a strong function, if at all. However, the US does stand as an interesting outlier there. This is repeated on the second version. The second graph details basically whether or not having more firearms sparks a "herd mentality" to shift how guns are used. Again, no trend, but the US seems to stand high up in rate of violence...the other outlier is Slovenia.

[nik-]

No one is suggesting that once guns are banned that we should just sweep social issues and mental sickness under the rug. I'm not sure why you're implying we would just cease to treat people.