France teacher asks students to write suicide notes

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Thor

I couldn't disagree more.

You couldn't disagree more that he should be fired, or that he showed a lack of judgement? Or both? You're okay with the writing of suicide notes as grade school assignments?

Originally Posted by Thor

French kids are not coddled like American kids, so a 14 yr old can handle a mature assignment, where as if this happened in the US it would be followed by mass outrage, lawsuits and lots of faux outrage.

Don't mistake "kids are not coddled" with "all mature topics are fine at all age groups." Just because Europeans may be exposed to more "mature" topics than other children at similar ages, it doesn't necessarily mean they should be exposed to all mature topics at any arbitrarily chosen age. And I don't know what to make of "if this happened in the US." It doesn't seem this "outrage" would differ much between France and the States, considering this assignment was given in France, and is causing outrage in France.

Personally, when a child is just forming a personal social image of themselves, and at an age when most mental illnesses begin to manifest themselves, I'd rather they not be made to write their own suicide notes. What happened to a list of things you don't like about yourself, and a list of things you do? Chances are these kids are going to be depressed enough when they're older (the suicide rate in "mature" France is 40% higher than it is in the United States), what's the hurry to make them dwell on their own self-inflicted deaths now?

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by AR_Six

Good point, because if you're a mentally ill person at risk of killing yourself, I imagine you spend most of your time thinking "Damn, I'd end it all right here right now if only I could get some instruction from my high school teacher as to how to properly express myself in a suicide note."

The key words in your post are "mentally ill." You do realize the mentally ill are inherently not in a rational state of mind, right?

[Kipperriffic]

Not a bad idea - hopefully the teacher hands it back to them with added notes and grammar error corrections. If they do decide to kill themselves in future, at least their letter will flow smoothly and will be free of grammatical errors. They could also edit a friend's suicide letter for him/her.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm shocked that the new version of word doesn't have a template.

Why not just use a suicide note generator

13, 2012

Dear World,
I am not some psychotic ####### or pathetic loser trying to end my miserable, piece of crap existence. Nor am I one of these wussies using suicide as a cry for help. I am not protesting anything, not mad at the world, not drunk and playing with my gun, and I am not any of the other stupid reasons people kill themselves. I have a good reason.
I just snorted not 1, but 2 lines of coke off of not 2, but 3 hookers' chests. Then we all 4 made sweet beautiful love. The kind of sweet beautiful love they sing rap songs about and outlaw in southern states. Then we washed, rinsed and repeated until we were all dehydrated. Life is good.
So, tonight I kill myself as king of the world. Literally, things cannot get better. I have reached the pinnacle of life, and not just my life, but the zenith of existence itself. Bliss, Nirvana, Utopia. I am at the top of the mountain pissing down on the rest of you. Unfortunately, the days ahead of me will never be as good as tonight. So I have nothing to look forward to.
It is truly the best night that could and will ever be, which is why my life must end tonight. Life can now only get worse. Nothing is left for me here in this world. I already won. Every seemingly joyous moment from here forward would be compared to tonight and fall miserably short. So, I'm going out on top, high as hell, feeling good, and my seed spread in and among three beautiful women.
It was good to be me.
CaptaincrunchP.S. If you get a collect call from a cow in India in the next couple of years, accept the charges.

http://www.porkjerky.com/free/suicide.php

[AR_Six]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

The key words in your post are "mentally ill." You do realize the mentally ill are inherently not in a rational state of mind, right?

I am far too mentally ill to realize this.

[Rathji]

The main objections I note in this thread are that bringing up suicide with these kids could cause them to have suicidal thoughts or maybe push them into doing it.

Just want to point out that in the Safe training, that people get to deal with possible suicide situations, specifically deals with this concept by pointing out that almost every person has thoughts of suicide at some point in their life and you bringing it up certainly isn't going to put anything there that hasn't already been there many times before.

Better to get the topic discussed in the open than stew in someone's head until they finally decide to go through with it.

[icecube]

I don't think I'd have what it takes to end my life, but if I did I would leave a note and it would definitely begin with the words "To Boddah"

[OffsideSpecialist]

If what my mother says is true, the difference between French and English schools, even in Canada, is staggering. She said that in Montreal they dealt with mature content in grades 6 and 7 that was revisited in Ontario for her at grades 12 and 13. Not sure if that is so much the case for them anymore.

[JohnnyB]

As a teacher and school admin I don't find the notion that objectionable. Seems like a potentially meaningful activity if set up well. The fact that other parents in the community were rallying behind the teacher tells me that it probably was meaningful.

Opinions like those expressed by flamesfever just make me feel pain as an educator. Many of the best teachers teach on the edge a bit.

[CaptainCrunch]

removed because of today's school shooting.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

As a teacher and school admin I don't find the notion that objectionable. Seems like a potentially meaningful activity if set up well. The fact that other parents in the community were rallying behind the teacher tells me that it probably was meaningful.

Opinions like those expressed by flamesfever just make me feel pain as an educator. Many of the best teachers teach on the edge a bit.

I agree that the best teachers tend to teach on the edge. However I believe there has to be limits.

IMO it's OK to discuss suicide with kids, providing it's handled correctly with a person who has adequate training and experience, but to experiment by encouraging them to dwell on negatives in their life and follow it with a suicide letter is crossing the line...particularly at that age.

Incidentally, my wife is also a teacher and completely agrees with me.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I agree that the best teachers tend to teach on the edge. However I believe there has to be limits.

IMO it's OK to discuss suicide with kids, providing it's handled correctly with a person who has adequate training and experience, but to experiment by encouraging them to dwell on negatives in their life and follow it with a suicide letter is crossing the line...particularly at that age.

Incidentally, my wife is also a teacher and completely agrees with me.

I don't believe this result is what the activity would produce.

Having to explain why you killed yourself and your feelings for your family/friends can give you good grounding on the things in your life that are valuable and worth having a long and happy life for. It might give the educators some insight into which students are actually having these kinds of thoughts.

Just my opinion.

Suicide among teens is a big problem. In Canada 24% of deaths of 15-24 year olds are suicides and suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among 10-24 year olds.

It needs to be talked about, not just among adults but among the teens who actually are going through the depression.

I think the teacher should be supported for his attempts.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

You couldn't disagree more that he should be fired, or that he showed a lack of judgement? Or both? You're okay with the writing of suicide notes as grade school assignments?

Don't mistake "kids are not coddled" with "all mature topics are fine at all age groups." Just because Europeans may be exposed to more "mature" topics than other children at similar ages, it doesn't necessarily mean they should be exposed to all mature topics at any arbitrarily chosen age. And I don't know what to make of "if this happened in the US." It doesn't seem this "outrage" would differ much between France and the States, considering this assignment was given in France, and is causing outrage in France.

Actually it seems that most of the outrage is coming from outside of France, and yes I think if done correctly an assignment like this could be a great idea. Kids have to deal with suicide, either through their own thoughts, or knowing friends who have committed suicide. I grew up losing 2 friends to suicide, one around 14 the other at 17. I would imagine most of you have either lost a school friend to suicide or at least knew someone in passing who did.

So I prefer kids are challenged to think about such an event, conversation and assignments like this could be just what kids need to help understand or even be better prepared to deal with their own thoughts of despair. Certainly shying from it and making it a taboo subject for teachers isn't IMO the way to go.

Personally, when a child is just forming a personal social image of themselves, and at an age when most mental illnesses begin to manifest themselves, I'd rather they not be made to write their own suicide notes.

Why? Do you honestly think that this assignment would push a child to suicide? I would think it would do the opposite, because suicide usually happens when someone has given up, reached a real end point, not during a class setting when being forced to deal with those ideas and feelings might just be the thing that helps you start to deal with your own thoughts.

(the suicide rate in "mature" France is 40% higher than it is in the United States), what's the hurry to make them dwell on their own self-inflicted deaths now?

Not sure where you get this figure from, the world health organization shows nothing of the sort:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4751/table/T1/

USA at 8 per 100,000, France at 5 per 100,000 in suicides between the ages of 15-19 yrs old, from 2004 figures.

And to also add, I think teachers who go outside the box and play a bit on the edge are usually the best teachers, I would hazard a guess this is why so many parents are standing up for this teacher, because they have a great respect for them.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by peter12

Anyone read Camus' "The Stranger?" This stuff is just built into the French social fabric.

Robin Williams used to do a bit - with a French accent. "Life is sh@t, then you die". Takes a drag of a cigarette.

[Stampede2TheCup]

For everyone who seems to think this was a good idea for a classroom assignment, you should know it's a fairly well studied fact that publicizing suicides and such tends to cause more suicides. It's all good to be edgy as a teacher and get kids to think about mature subjects, but just not with this particular topic. More exposure to the topic basically seems to cause more suicides.

"Hearing about a suicide seems to make those who are vulnerable feel they have permission to do it," Dr. Phillips said

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect

[Anduril]

While this wouldn't necessarily cause students to suddenly develop suicidal tendencies and/or thoughts, those who were already struggling to begin with might take advantage of the situation and could further push them closer to making that decision.

I definitely don't think that it was a smart move by the teacher, regardless of whatever age the students were or whether they were on France or not. For some people, this assignment could really hit too close to home.
This reaction is probably based towards a North American perspective and I can see some merit in it for a at risk individual to write out their reasons for dying, just don't feel that it's appropriate as a school assignment.


Scribbled with the Note II

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by OffsideSpecialist

If what my mother says is true, the difference between French and English schools, even in Canada, is staggering. She said that in Montreal they dealt with mature content in grades 6 and 7 that was revisited in Ontario for her at grades 12 and 13. Not sure if that is so much the case for them anymore.

I noticed the differences between the school division where I grew up and the content in other divisions was quite mature. I dont agree that it is a english/french thing
I have mentioned to teacher friends about the books we read at certain grades and they were shocked.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by blah blah

For everyone who seems to think this was a good idea for a classroom assignment, you should know it's a fairly well studied fact that publicizing suicides and such tends to cause more suicides. It's all good to be edgy as a teacher and get kids to think about mature subjects, but just not with this particular topic. More exposure to the topic basically seems to cause more suicides.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werther_effect

You are taking a conclusion based on hearing about someone actually committing suicide and transferring that same conclusion to any discussion related to the topic of suicide.

In fact, the main thing they drill into you when you take training for suicide prevention and intervention, is that you *cannot* put these thoughts into someones head by talking about it.

[Stampede2TheCup]

Originally Posted by Rathji

You are taking a conclusion based on hearing about someone actually committing suicide and transferring that same conclusion to any discussion related to the topic of suicide.

In fact, the main thing they drill into you when you take training for suicide prevention and intervention, is that you *cannot* put these thoughts into someones head by talking about it.

It's not self-evident that the distinction you're making really matters in the way you're asserting and your ancedote about suicide prevention training certainly doesn't prove it. Exactly as Anduril said, the risk is not putting thoughts into someone's head, it's that through exposure that someone who is already struggling with the idea finds it more acceptable. I'm not saying suicide shouldn't be talked about. Writing a suicide note as a school exercise or anything similar to it doesn't have a precedent as a safe, healthy, exercise. It's completely different from talking to someone supportively as is advocated in suicide prevention protocols. Why gamble when the risks are so big? I just think all the potential negatives in this situation outweigh the potential positives.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by blah blah

It's not self-evident that the distinction you're making really matters in the way you're asserting and your ancedote about suicide prevention training certainly doesn't prove it. Exactly as Anduril said, the risk is not putting thoughts into someone's head, it's that through exposure that someone who is already struggling with the idea finds it more acceptable. I'm not saying suicide shouldn't be talked about. Writing a suicide note as a school exercise or anything similar to it doesn't have a precedent as a safe, healthy, exercise. It's completely different from talking to someone supportively as is advocated in suicide prevention protocols. Why gamble when the risks are so big? I just think all the potential negatives in this situation outweigh the potential positives.

Even if that is true, which I won't debate any further, that is not what the Werther Effect is referring to, so posting it as 'evidence' to back up your claim causes some warning bells to go off.