2012 NFL Season Thread

[themedicineman]

From page 17 of Tagliabue's release.

I find the NFL’s contentions lacking in merit. In dealing with pay-for-performance pools that appear comparable to Fujita’s pool, the League has emphasized club responsibility for ensuring player compliance with League policies, and has disciplined clubs - - but not players - -
for non-compliance. For example, in separate instances involving the Green Bay Packers and New England Patriots in 2007 and 2008, the League fined the clubs $25,000 or less, without disciplining any player. Notably, the 2007 discipline letter to the Patriots stated that:

You have confirmed that a number of Patriots’ players
were in violation of this rule [prohibiting bonuses paid by players
to their teammates as a reward for game performance]. Fine
money assessed and collected by the players was distributed as
rewards to players for achieving an onfield incentive during a
game.

. . . While the Patriots’ players emphatically denied that
rewards were offered for targeting specific players or for taking
them out of the game, this issue underscores the importance of
prohibiting these types of bonuses; if an injury does occur, the
mere existence of a specific bonus for onfield performance against
a particular team invites unnecessary speculation that a player or
players may have been a target for overzealous defenders.
As you have acknowledged, it is the club’s responsibility to
inform its players of the parameters of the rule and monitor their
compliance.

Accordingly, the NFL’s decision to suspend a player here for participating in a program for which the League typically fines a club certainly raises significant issues regarding inconsistent treatment between players and teams.

This ruling has just made me even more mad about this season than I was before. My hate for goodell is at an all time high and my faith in the league as low as its ever been.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by themedicineman

From page 17 of Tagliabue's release.



This ruling has just made me even more mad about this season than I was before. My hate for goodell is at an all time high and my faith in the league as low as its ever been.

I read the entire document, and its pretty consistent with what I thought. Williams had a Program. (A pay for incentive program which was common across many teams and took on many forms) The Saints one appeared to be farther reaching than most and included big hits. It was pre-meditated and the message was carefully crafted. Peyton knew about it, and although didn't appear to be aggressively supporting it, he didn't report it as he should, further he appeared to try to hide it.

Although players whooped and hollered in meetings about the Program, there isn't much evidence that infield play was affected. **outside the document but the LA times did a study between 09-11 to find that the Defence was 26th in being involved in injuries on the field.** It is mainly for this reason that all suspensions were lifted. As noted above pay for incentive programs have been found before and the NFL basically would slap a small fine on them. Treating the Saints the way he did was grossly inconsistent.

[themedicineman]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I read the entire document, and its pretty consistent with what I thought. Williams had a Program. (A pay for incentive program which was common across many teams and took on many forms) The Saints one appeared to be farther reaching than most and included big hits. It was pre-meditated and the message was carefully crafted. Peyton knew about it, and although didn't appear to be aggressively supporting it, he didn't report it as he should, further he appeared to try to hide it.

Although players whooped and hollered in meetings about the Program, there isn't much evidence that infield play was affected. **outside the document but the LA times did a study between 09-11 to find that the Defence was 26th in being involved in injuries on the field.** It is mainly for this reason that all suspensions were lifted. As noted above pay for incentive programs have been found before and the NFL basically would slap a small fine on them. Treating the Saints the way he did was grossly inconsistent.

Yeah what got me was there were prior incidences that set a precedent for what the punishments should be. The suspensions, the fines, and the picks taken away are all far too much for an infraction for a pay for performance. I still hate the wording the NFL including Tag's release uses to save face. All I hope for now is that Vilma is successful in his defamation suit against Goodell.

[Sainters7]

So Donte Stallworth plays sparingly in one game, catches a TD...and now he's back on the IR.

...and that's why his nickname (at least with Saints fans) has always been Donte Streetclothes.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

You only listen to what you want to hear on this topic. There wasn't sufficient evidence to suspend them. If Goddell says suspend them they are guilty, if Tag. says don't suspend them you think he's full of %$#%.

Of everyone on here, including those who have saints logos as avatars, you have had the most biased, blind, one sided, non negotiating viewpoint out of anyone.

You do realize most people are utterly confused by this ruling yes? If there wasn't sufficient evidence, then how can they say it existed? They can theorize it did, but that should bother you a whole lot if there apparently wasn't enough evidence to suspend them, but they still claim the program was in existence. If the players participated, and if there was a program, then how could they not, they should be suspended. I'm mostly glad this is over quite frankly, its been an utter mess since the beginning, Although now we'll probably see more come out, like such.

“The record includes PowerPoint slide presentations made by the Saints’ coaching staff to Saints’ players following the Saints’ victories in 2009 season playoff games against the Arizona Cardinals (with quarterback Kurt Warner) and the Minnesota Vikings (with quarterback Brett Favre). Several of these presentations are very graphic and suggest that the aim of the Saints’ defense was to injure these quarterbacks. For example, one slide set following the game against the Cardinals includes a photo of Kurt Warner lying on the ground with a caption: ‘SO WE WILL JUST DESTROY EACH QUARTERBACK LEAVING EACH TEAM WITHOUT A FIELD GENERAL! ONE DOWN TWO QB’S TO GO!’ . . . . Another slide set from after the NFC Championship game again includes photos of Kurt Warner lying on the field with a caption of ‘BOO F***ING HOO MISSION ACCOMPLISHED VS. WARNER AND FAVRE’; and the next slide includes photos of Brett Favre being helped off the field and of his bruised and bandaged ankle and leg, with a caption of ‘ONE MORE QB TO GO!!!!‘”

Ultimately this decision was a save-face for the NFL. Now it can claim victory, and so can the players. More evidence will come out over time and it'll be up to everyone to make up their minds. Right now I don't think anyone could definitively say one way or another it really existed. Only the players and coaches know for sure (still haven't seen a Gregg Williams recant of his story), and neither group has any incentive to tell the truth, much like at this point neither does the league.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by themedicineman

Yeah what got me was there were prior incidences that set a precedent for what the punishments should be. The suspensions, the fines, and the picks taken away are all far too much for an infraction for a pay for performance. I still hate the wording the NFL including Tag's release uses to save face. All I hope for now is that Vilma is successful in his defamation suit against Goodell.

I don't think Tag's document saves face at all, I think it's quite damning to the way the NFL used to punish NO in the first place, both in terms of the process and the consequences. I've said it many times, what is different now is that the NFL is tap-dancing to future juries in the class action suites that are being lobbed into their NY office.

Between the Seau suicide, the way Goodell runs the NFL and the KC linebacker thing my interest in the NFL has taken a massive step back. I used to watch part of every single game, maybe for more than 5 years. This year I bet I've watched about 3 hours in total since week 1.

NCAA is far to entertaining to deal with the NFL. I hope Vilma wins his suit and I hope the class action suits rip the league a new one.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

You do realize most people are utterly confused by this ruling yes? If there wasn't sufficient evidence, then how can they say it existed? They can theorize it did, but that should bother you a whole lot if there apparently wasn't enough evidence to suspend them, but they still claim the program was in existence. If the players participated, and if there was a program, then how could they not, they should be suspended. I'm mostly glad this is over quite frankly, its been an utter mess since the beginning, Although now we'll probably see more come out, like such.


Ultimately this decision was a save-face for the NFL. Now it can claim victory, and so can the players. More evidence will come out over time and it'll be up to everyone to make up their minds. Right now I don't think anyone could definitively say one way or another it really existed. Only the players and coaches know for sure (still haven't seen a Gregg Williams recant of his story), and neither group has any incentive to tell the truth, much like at this point neither does the league.

A program existed, I and most people on here have always figured something did exist. But the way the NFL went about their shotgun approach to suspending people was the perfect example of ready, fire, aim. Goodell is a bully, just a typical NY lawyer bully. What's different from him and most NY lawyer bullies is millions of people take interest in his actions and the asset he manages.

Part of my prior comments are essentially that you have done the same thing. Ready, fire, aim. Hoping for the worst for everyone involved including the players that Goodell has pointed out that in many examples aren't a whole lot different than past NFL players, including Reggie White talking about their Cash4Smash program.

EDIT: I'd add that Tag's document removes almost all of my confusion on the topic. I had for months had no idea what had been going on, just random accounts. Tagliabue illustrated a very clear, concise account of his obersavations, his rulings on the players, the coaches and the summary of evidence.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The problem with Goodell's and too much power is its a problem of the players own creation, lest we forget. For a few dollars more they gave him more control in the last CBA. Now that they see what he's doing with it, shockingly they don't like it.

As to the NCAA being more exciting...not until the have a real playoff, and 4 teams is a nice start but I'd prefer just like the NFL 12 teams, top 4 get byes. Besides, the NFL has two things that drive it A) Gambling B) Fantasy Football. You might not watch anymore, but the ratings go up every single year. The parity is what drives the NFL too. Consider nearly half the teams in the NFL are one game out of the playoffs. No league in the world is as competitve and close as the NFL. The NCAA is, well, kinda boring and predictable in that you always know who's going to be close to the top.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The problem with Goodell's and too much power is its a problem of the players own creation, lest we forget. For a few dollars more they gave him more control in the last CBA. Now that they see what he's doing with it, shockingly they don't like it.

As to the NCAA being more exciting...not until the have a real playoff, and 4 teams is a nice start but I'd prefer just like the NFL 12 teams, top 4 get byes. Besides, the NFL has two things that drive it A) Gambling B) Fantasy Football. You might not watch anymore, but the ratings go up every single year. The parity is what drives the NFL too. Consider nearly half the teams in the NFL are one game out of the playoffs. No league in the world is as competitve and close as the NFL. The NCAA is, well, kinda boring and predictable in that you always know who's going to be close to the top.

That would absolutely ruin college football but don't divert the topic..

As for the Goodell having too much power ... no kidding. But how he has is isn't relevant to me, he has it, and it destroys the NFL's credibility.

As for ratings and competitive balance ... all true but totally irrelevant to anything I have said so I don't know why competitive balance is even a topic.

BTW what were ND's odds at the beginning of the season

[OILFAN #81]

Colts signed Baylor alumni Robert Griffin today.....

Okay so it is the guard who blocked for RGIII. They are giving this guy the nickname RG330 because of his weight.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

So Donte Stallworth plays sparingly in one game, catches a TD...and now he's back on the IR.

...and that's why his nickname (at least with Saints fans) has always been Donte Streetclothes.

Dion Branch can come back, again.

[Papi34]

Gronk back practising, further proof he is a robot.

[Papi34]

Originally Posted by troutman

Dion Branch can come back, again.

I liked what Stallworth brought, far less reliable than Deion, but brought the deep ball aspect something Deion definitely cannot do.

Deion is in fact re-signed

[Senator Clay Davis]

Pretty sure at this point Deion Branch just lives in a Winnebago in the Gillette Stadium parking lot.

[Drake]

Huh? Cam Cameron lost his job before the second Pittsburgh game, somehow it took over two weeks to finally fire him? He was apparently doing the game planning leading up to the Washington game. So that must mean he did the Pittsburgh game also. I was reading a Baltimore Orioles forum from somebody who apparently has insider information and what went onto him being finally fired. I'm lost for words why it took this long.

I'll sum it up, Cam Cameron was on the hot seat for a long time. Remember that Houston game where Baltimore got killed 43-13? They had a bye the following week. You might have heard by now John Harbaugh had a mutiny after they came back after their bye about him wanting his players to practice in pads. Wrong. So many people on the offense and defense side of the ball were upset about the play calling in that Houston game. John Harbaugh was shocked. The whole meeting surrounded around Cam Cameron.

Now fast forward to the first Pittsburgh game. Joe Linta (Joe Flacco's agent) called up Ozzie Newsome after that game. Joe Linta told Ozzie Newsome he can't play with that type of play calling and would rather not do a deal. Ozzie Newsome told Joe Linta that Cam Cameron was in his final year, but would take a wait and see approach.

Now fast forward to the second Pittsburgh game. John Harbaugh went to Jim Caldwell before the game and told him to take over. In that game Joe Flacco audibled a run directly into a run blitz. John Harbaugh asked him WTF was that when he came to the sidelines. Joe Flacco said it was a designed audible. He was pissed to find out that Cam Cameron was now designing audibles.

Ray Rice had been fuming for awhile. Him and Cam Cameron got into a heated exchange after Cam Cameron went to the press and said that Rice was double and triple teamed. Ray Rice went to John Harbaugh after they finally fired him as he supported the decision.

They were happy with how Joe Flacco worked with Jim Caldwell in camp. They felt he was getting better, it went south in a hurry as they felt he was regressing. Jim Caldwell had input into what happened in the first game of the season. In typical Cam Cameron fashion, he shut him down after that. If I remember correctly that game went pretty damn well. The same poster said you likely will see a lot more uptempo, no huddle and more three man looks. They will probably get the ball into Ray Rice's hands more as a receiver.

[Montana Moe]

Drew Brees' press conference today, he addresses the rescinding of the suspensions, and where they go from here. Brutally honest, I like it.

LINK

[rubecube]

I think this article makes a lot of good points.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...bounty-scandal

What Goodell did to those players was unconscionable, but very typical of the way commissioners act when nobody's watching. (It's also the way bosses behave in almost every American workplace these days, and in places where people don't have Paul Tagliabue to go their bond for them.) The one thing I will not put up with is this notion that the various Saints in question — and I exempt Scott Fujita, who apparently really did get screwed, from all of this — are martyrs to union solidarity and the rights of due process. I admire not a single one of them, and this is why.

Even Tagliabue's report admits the existence of a bounty program. Even Tagliabue's report admits that the Saints, under coach Sean Payton, engaged in the systematic injury of opposing NFL players for cheap profit. Even Tagliabue's report admits that the entire Saints operation showed a consciousness of guilt by engaging in an elaborate conspiracy to hide what they were doing from the responsible officials in the NFL.

The Saints went out of their way to damage their fellow players for what amounts to tip money for most of them, and they did it in a perfect demonstration of the savagery that produced the current moral crisis in the NFL in the first place. And far too many people think Tagliabue's criticism of Goodell's authoritarian style justifies this plunge into a moral abyss, because that's the way things always have been done in the NFL, where men are men and a lot of them don't remember their names when they're 50. For this group of fans, the important thing to remember is that Goodell's power is broken, and not that Brett Favre's body was. As far as I'm concerned — no matter how glad I am that his rights are now safeguarded — Jonathan Vilma can go pound sand.

[OILFAN #81]

This whole 16 team playoff over 12 team playoff talk is dumb. 16 teams is way too much. I like the format exactly how it is.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

This whole 16 team playoff over 12 team playoff talk is dumb. 16 teams is way too much. I like the format exactly how it is.

Goodell has proved he'll pretty much do anything to squeeze every last penny out of fans, networks, etc., regardless of the effects it has on the actual product. At some point it's going to become counter-productive.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Ugh...Not only moronic, but making Stephen A look like the voice of reason?

Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III recently said in a recent interview that he didn’t want to be defined as an African-American quarterback. One ESPN commentator says that raises questions about Griffin.

In fact, ESPN’s Rob Parker said Thursday morning on First Take that as an African-American, he has a lot of questions about Griffin.

“My question is, and it’s just a straight, honest question: Is he a brother, or is he a cornball brother,” Parker said. “He’s not really. He’s black, he does his thing, but he’s not really down with the cause. He’s not one of us. He’s kind of black, but he’s not really like the kind of guy you really want to hang out with.”

Parker said he wants to know more about Griffin’s personal life before he can accept Griffin as authentically black.

“I want to find about him,” Parker said. “I don’t know because I keep hearing these things. We all know he has a white fiancee. Then there was all this talk about he’s a Republican, which there’s no information at all. I’m just trying to dig deeper into why he has an issue. Because we did find out with Tiger Woods, Tiger Woods was like, ‘I’ve got black skin, but don’t call me black.’ So people wondered about Tiger Woods.
”
Asked by fellow panelist Skip Bayless about the fact that Griffin braids his hair, Parker said that’s an aspect of Griffin that he approves of.

“That’s different, because, to me, that’s very urban,” Parker said. “Wearing braids is, you’re a brother. You’re a brother if you’ve got braids.”

Another panelist on the show, Stephen A. Smith, said he wasn’t comfortable with how Parker had framed his argument.

“First of all, let me say this: I’m uncomfortable with where we just went,” Smith said when asked to respond to Parker. “RG3, the ethnicity or the color of his fiancee is none of our business, it’s irrelevant, he can live his life in whatever way he chooses. The braids that he has in his hair, that’s his business, that’s his life, he can live his life. I don’t judge someone’s blackness based on those kinds of things. I just don’t do that. I’m not that kind of guy.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...es-not-really/