Iraq at civil war!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I guess you missed the "since we're generalizing" preamble. Reading comprehension. Look into it. I'm sure there's a game tape of it someplace.

Seems YOU are the embrassment. I have again asked you to produce SOMETHING to support your side of the argument, and you pull a FoxNews and waive your arms around trying to divert attention from the fact you have nothing. BRING SOMETHING TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEW!!! You seem to like to make people believe that YOUR OPINION is in the majority, so shouldn't you be able produce something to back up your ****?

Lanny,

Maybe I should send a game tape of my argument. Reread the post I made and try to understand the HISTORICAL context that I put it in. It blew away your arrogant "They need a jackboot of a dictator" idiocy.

You do know who Stalin and Hitler are don't ya? Do you need a game tape for finding Brittain? How about their history?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Its not surprising the other right-wingers don't rush to your defense. They must cringe seeing you put your 'point of view' out there and calling it 'right-wing'. You're a disgrace to intelligent conservatives everywhere, and a discredit to their cause. Thats why they don't chime in to support you... ever.

Now it is a numbers game?

You mean if I bring all of my friends and you bring all of your friends the person who has more people wins the argument? This is a little shocking.

When you are supporting the "Bring back the Dictators" argument I don't think they are cringing at my point of view. I think it is quite the opposite.

This is WELL beyond being against the invasion and occupation of Iraq. You are well into Ding Dong territory.

And Agamennon....you are sooooooo far out their in Left field....any Blue Liberal would look like a Donald Rumsfeld. Then again you seem to be continually on the side of Fascism.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by HOZ

oh yeah, that's right...England was forced by an invading army to adopt democracy...

your argument is patently false.

Neither were the Iraqis. They turned out on their own, under threat of death, in a greater percentage than Canadians did last election. They elected their governent which is the right of any citizen on this planet. They have held three elcection under cercumstances that no Canadian would or could dream of yet they turned out. No one forced them to do this.

Saddam Hussein was forced from his many thrones by the American-Anglo force.

of course, thise was all after their infrastructure was destroyed and they had no government. It was your analogy about England having a terrible history of in fighting and choosing to forego the monarchy as a method of ruling, not mine.


Yes Saddam was a dictator - one that was supported by the United State government up to 1989!

Thank you for that history lesson. This is now 2006. What is the excuse of these countries (France, China, Germany and Russian) that cut deals with him and supported him after that?

Like the subsiduaries of Haliburton? Who also did business with Iraq by proxy of their foreign companies? Simply put, history is important so that one doesn't repeat their mistakes of the past. Saddam isn't the only dictator that the US has installed and or supported.


who is the one that is suffering from being myoptic.

Certainly not me.

Sure, even W. is admitting mistakes, but you're not myoptic



newsflash Hoz
Oh boy...more history

- Iraq DID NOT HAVE WMD. Period.
I guess those Kurds were killed by excess agricultural pesticide inhilation? If you mean prior to the invasion. I guess you should have spoke up because you seem to know better than these learned people. Saddam, Iraqi Generals, CIA. MI5, France, Russia, UN, Saudi Arabia secret service. Now if Saddam did know....what a dummy. He had plenty of time to come clean.

Wow, thank you for the history lesson - so you're dismissing my argument using the "ancient history" argument, and yet using it to support yours? No WMDs were found in Iraq.


- Iraq WAS NOT involved in 9/11. Period
So what? They broke the 1991 ceasefire agreement with the UN-multi-national forces after being thrown from Kuwait. That mandate clearly called for force to have him removed. Instead countries like France, Germany, Russia and China cut deals with him while Saddam let thousands die while he built his palaces.

ROFLAO! The 9/11 argument is what the Bush administration used to justify the war in the first place. Do you really think the public would have supported the war is it was to "bring democracy" to Iraq?! The US is spending billions of dollars over there - the american people certainly could use some of that money to fix social security, not to mention hurricane Katrina...


- Saddam WAS AN ALLY of the United up until 1989.
Manchester? Dammit won't cheer for them again!!! One thing you seem to be really missing here. Didn't your mother ever tell you that you make right a wrong?

I'll restate the argument for you - the removal of this dictator was not an issue when the US was allies with him. Suddenly, after 9/11, his removal became a matter of global security. Funny how that works isn't it?

- Osama WAS funded by the United States until the end of the Soviet invasion of Iraq.
Damn Soviets....didn't hear of that one. Do you mean Afghanistan? Yes it is well documented so thank you for the obvious. Should the USA have done nothing? Just lay down and say" Well we supported him so we can't or shouldn't do anything now" ???????????????????

ah yes, again, the misunderstanding of why history is important...the point is with regard to "blowback"...simply put, many believed that the invasion would result in similar Bin Laden types, who would use the Iraq invasion as a method of recruitment which would add momentum to the extremist's supporters.

"Left-wingnut"? Maybe - but what does that make you?
Someone who is estounded at how bizarre people like you have become.

"estounded"? Yes, you also "estound" me with your refusal to see the other side of the argument

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Neither were the Iraqis. They turned out on their own, under threat of death, in a greater percentage than Canadians did last election. They elected their governent which is the right of any citizen on this planet. They have held three elcection under cercumstances that no Canadian would or could dream of yet they turned out. No one forced them to do this.

Oh my god, this is too rich!!! Iraqis turned out in huge numbers so democracy is working? I think you and mbrown should get together and do some studying about democracy and what it actually takes for the mechanism to function. Casting a vote is not democratic without comprehension of the ramifications of the action. Iraqis didn't know what was going on and did exactly what the local imam told them to do and who to vote for. That is no democracy. That is not an election. That is a sham.

Saddam Hussein was forced from his many thrones by the American-Anglo force.

Wow, did you figure that one out all by yourself? That's brilliant. Now you should try and figure out whether or not the action was LEGAL and whether the action was even REQUIRED. I'll save you some time, it was not legal and was not required, no matter how many lies the Bush Administration dreams up to justify the action.

Thank you for that history lesson. This is now 2006. What is the excuse of these countries (France, China, Germany and Russian) that cut deals with him and supported him after that?

WTF??? And what deals are these? Blowing up the oil for food scandal to more than it was I see. Do yourself a favor and stop watching FoxNews. Its rotting the two brain cells you have left.

Certainly not me.

In your twisted little world. It seems that you are in the vast minority and not a single person is backing you up.

I guess those Kurds were killed by excess agricultural pesticide inhilation?

How did you put it? This is now 2006. The Kurds were gassed in 1988, almost 20 years ago. Oh, and gassed using weapons supplied by the United States.

If you mean prior to the invasion. I guess you should have spoke up because you seem to know better than these learned people. Saddam, Iraqi Generals, CIA. MI5, France, Russia, UN, Saudi Arabia secret service. Now if Saddam did know....what a dummy. He had plenty of time to come clean.

WTF are you talking about? UN Weapons inspectors found nothing. The United States dreamed up evidence and presented it to the UN Security Council and the General Assembly, and no one bought it without being majorly paid off with American foreign aid. Blix stated that Hussein was clean, and everying but the US believed him.
[quote]

So what? They broke the 1991 ceasefire agreement with the UN-multi-national forces after being thrown from Kuwait. That mandate clearly called for force to have him removed. Instead countries like France, Germany, Russia and China cut deals with him while Saddam let thousands die while he built his palaces.

Again, as you pointed out, that was over a decade prior to the 2003 invasion. You're grasping at straws.

Manchester? Dammit won't cheer for them again!!! One thing you seem to be really missing here. Didn't your mother ever tell you that you make right a wrong?

WTF are you babbling about?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Lanny,

Maybe I should send a game tape of my argument. Reread the post I made and try to understand the HISTORICAL context that I put it in. It blew away your arrogant "They need a jackboot of a dictator" idiocy.

You do know who Stalin and Hitler are don't ya? Do you need a game tape for finding Brittain? How about their history?

Actually, your comparison had no relevance and made zero sense. Germany was a democracy prior to Hitler. Russia was a monarchy. Both countries had a pretty unified culture which made it easy to govern. Iraq is comrpised of four distinct tribes that all have radically different belief structures. The only way to make a country like this is through a strong secular government who will force the sects to get along. Not doing so will only lead to the civil war that Iraq finds itself embroiled in.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

You mean if I bring all of my friends...

That's funny, I thought you DID bring all of your friends with you.

[CalgaryCowboy]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

The only way to make a country like this is through a strong secular government who will force the sects to get along. Not doing so will only lead to the civil war that Iraq finds itself embroiled in.

By force I hope you mean a strong central government with a constitution and fair bill of rights not death squads.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by HOZ

And Agamennon....you are sooooooo far out their in Left field....any Blue Liberal would look like a Donald Rumsfeld. Then again you seem to be continually on the side of Fascism.

Being on the Left and supporting Fascism go together now? Where did you get this? The University of the Calgary Sun?

This is a blatant lie. I'm going to go ahead and call you out on it. Find some examples of where I am 'continually on the side of Fascism'. A pathetic smear and totally baseless. Contemptuous.

[mbrown]

Well.. let's see.. In recent times the far left has supported the Palestinians over Israeli's.. Anyone see Svend 'that was MY diamond' Robinson over there? What an idiot. The left is on the side of Saddam and seemingly the Taliban. Afghanistan WAS sanctioned by the UN and yet the left sill wants Canada to be out of there as well. The left likes to burry their heads in the sand and wish it all away where people with more 'balanced' view points stand up and try to make the world a better place.
Ask the Soldiers who they were hoping to win the last election.

'nuff said in my opinion.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well.. let's see.. In recent times the far left has supported the Palestinians over Israeli's.. Anyone see Svend 'that was MY diamond' Robinson over there? What an idiot. The left is on the side of Saddam and seemingly the Taliban. Afghanistan WAS sanctioned by the UN and yet the left sill wants Canada to be out of there as well. The left likes to burry their heads in the sand and wish it all away where people with more 'balanced' view points stand up and try to make the world a better place.
Ask the Soldiers who they were hoping to win the last election.

'nuff said in my opinion.

Wow, another world class stupid post. Do you bother to think before you post, or do you just make like a monkey and start hammering the keys and hope something intelligible comes out?

Ironic that you shoud bring up the Israel issue. The problem with the Israel/Palestine issue is very similar to the Iraqi issue. Many in the world view the Israelis as the occupier, just like the US is in Iraq. The Palestinians have the right to their homeland and have the right of self government. The Israeli occupation and settlement in Palestinian land is the crux of issue. If the Israelis would negotiate in good faith, and stop with the assinine eye-for-an-eye attacks, this issue could likely be settled and allow the healing to begin. It is going to take generations of Israelis and Palestinians living with/next to each other before the hatred subsides. Until a resolution is found through political means this conflict will continue to go on forever, or until one side is completely wiped out.

I also laughed outloud when you said it is the left that is burying its head in the sand and hoping problems will all just go away. I hate to break it to you, but one of the tenets of conservatism (the right wing) is to lessen change and ignore new dynamics. Conservatism is all about burying one's head in the sand and hoping change will go away. Religion is the foundation for conservatism and religion is all about no change. What happened 2000 years ago is the basis for our society today? Where is the head of anyone who believes that? Firmly planted in the sand, or between their butt cheeks?

Finally, who cares who the soldiers voted for? The military is NOT a democracy, and the soldiers do what they are told. Frankly, if ANY country is relying on their soldiers to decide policy or sway the vote one way or another, they are in serious trouble. The military is filled with society's rejects. The military recruits those that have no place else to go and hope they can turn them into something. Trust me, I work around ex-military personnel all day, and they are the dumbest bunch of people on this planet. The reason they went in the military is because they needed someone to tell them what to do and which boot goes on which foot. The men and women in the military get trained very well in how to do things, but free thought and comprehension of concepts is not something they are exposed to. Analysis of information is left to the contractors who have their wits about them. The military is there to execute the plan. Who these "mental giants" would vote for is irrelevant. I also think you are incorrect in your assumption and the numbers would be pretty close to being split, as was the whole country. But that is for another argument another day.

Originally Posted by CalgaryCowboy

By force I hope you mean a strong central government with a constitution and fair bill of rights not death squads.

Death squads? Hey, what ever it takes! Just kidding. Of course I'm talking about a strong central government and constitution. Without that, democracy cannot work.

I've been waiting to see if anyone would post the information on the Afghani who was arrested and put on trial for his conversion from Islam to Christianity some 20+ years ago. That conversion is the worst crime that a muslim can commit and the sentence for the guilty is death. This man went back to his native Afghanistan to help rebuild his country (that he was forced to leave 25 years earlier) and this is what happens to him. What is very interesting is that this case is the first real test that democracy in Afghanistan faces and would indeed be the proof that democracy was working.

Democracy works based on the tenets that are used to define and defend the society and the individual. The Afghani constitution defines that people have the freedom to practice what ever religion they choose and may not be pursecuted for that belief. Yet this man is on trial for his life, because Islamic law states he is a criminal. Now a true democracy would see this action play out and prove whether the tenets of democracy, those that protect all people regardless of affiliation, are the ones controlling the political mechanism, or if it is the theocratical tenets that rule the land. The courts, a key component of a true democracy and a reflection of the people's ability to understand the constitutional protections alotted to them, would make a ruling that would forever set precident and prove whether the state were capabe of protecting the rights of the individual, a democracy, or whether the religious laws would be what the state lived by, a theocracy.

Interestingly enough this whole issue was cut short after an intervention by the Bush administration. Bush and Rice exerted their influence and had the case tossed out by means of a change of plea, the man saying he was temporarily insane during his conversion to Christianity. This appeased the Islamic court and gave everyone an out. Unfortunately it prevented the PEOPLE from deciding their own way. It prevented democracy from working and proving whether the democratic mechanism had a chance of working in a country where religious beliefs are the guiding tenent for daily life. The first big chance that democracy had to work was quashed because those in Washington saw what was playing out and exactly where things were headed (or beheaded, depending on your view of the case).

IMO, this was a chance for the world to see whether Afghanistan and Iraq had any chance of having an honest to goodness opportunity at self-rule. Sadly, the world saw that the puppet is still at the end of a string and will do what ever the puppet master wishes it to do. Democracy had a great opportunity to makes its first spark and kindle the fire in all the people of the region. Bush and co ****ed all over that, snuffing the flame and not giving the people the chance to set their own path.

Democracy will not work, because democracy is not what the United States wants in the region. The United States wants a subserviant body that will do what ever it says. If the Bush Administration felt otherwise, they would allow the people of these countries to chart their own course though these democratic mechanisms.

[oldschoolcalgary]

mbrown-

The left is on the side of Saddam and seemingly the Taliban.
nice generalization there...the "left on the side of Saddam"? More like the "left" believing that there needs to be the rule of law when it comes to things like "pre-emptive war". The UN resolution was a function of previous Iraq violations, yes, but also Powell's case which was based on faulty intelligence. I haven't heard anyone questioning the decision to go into Afghanistan. Whether or not we stay is a legitimate question after 3 years...


Afghanistan WAS sanctioned by the UN and yet the left sill wants Canada to be out of there as well.
Well, I'm on the "left" and I think Canada should stay in Afghanistan - not sure about whether they should be in operational control - but they should stay.

The left likes to burry their heads in the sand and wish it all away where people with more 'balanced' view points stand up and try to make the world a better place.
Yes, everything that the US does is out of benevolence and altruism, all they want to do is make the world a better place...Who here has their head buried in the sand? If you really believe that the goal of the US was to "make Iraq a better place", you are as idealistic as those you have been mocking in this thread.

Blowback-its a term, if you don't know it, you should...its the history of US foreign policy in the Middle East.

And let's be clear here - this applies to the Democrats too, not just the Republicans.

[Looger]

yep, everything is left and right.

everything.

good god damn lord.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Seems our neocon friends have gone into hiding.

[mbrown]

"I've been waiting to see if anyone would post the information on the Afghani who was arrested and put on trial for his conversion from Islam to Christianity some 20+ years ago. That conversion is the worst crime that a muslim can commit and the sentence for the guilty is death. This man went back to his native Afghanistan to help rebuild his country (that he was forced to leave 25 years earlier) and this is what happens to him. What is very interesting is that this case is the first real test that democracy in Afghanistan faces and would indeed be the proof that democracy was working."

They dropped all charges related to this. So I can assume that you think democracy in Afghanistan is working now?

tut tut

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

They dropped all charges related to this. So I can assume that you think democracy in Afghanistan is working now?

tut tut

Thanks for again proving you have no idea how democracy works! You self-annointed defenders of democracy should first spend some time learning how the mechanism works before trying to stake a claim to the moral high ground on the topic. Its embarassing to see clowns rattle on and on about the subject, thinking that democracy begins and ends with an individual vote.

The case was dropped because of a backroom deal struck to prevent the trial from continuing. Yes, that's democracy in action! Oh wait, it actually isn't. Please, don't let this go to a jury of the mans peers and allow them to make the decision, and then don't allow the appeals to go through the court system, defining precident and allowing the people to decide for themselves. Instead allow the Americans to pull some legal wrangling that prevents the case from seeing the light of day and an potentially embarassing outcome. Too bad that the Afghanis couldn't make the call on their own. The judge was sure jonesing to make a ruling! Would have been interesting to see real democracy in action.

[mbrown]

"The case was dropped because of a backroom deal struck to prevent the trial from continuing. Yes, that's democracy in action! Oh wait, it actually isn't. Please, don't let this go to a jury of the mans peers and allow them to make the decision, and then don't allow the appeals to go through the court system, defining precident and allowing the people to decide for themselves. Instead allow the Americans to pull some legal wrangling that prevents the case from seeing the light of day and an potentially embarassing outcome. Too bad that the Afghanis couldn't make the call on their own. The judge was sure jonesing to make a ruling! Would have been interesting to see real democracy in action"

That's interesting Lanny, because the Afghani constitution that they passed guarantees freedom of religion. That couldn't be why could it?
My be a sad existence being as blinkered as a race horse.
my condolences Lanny.
It sure is cool how you make it in the backdoor of these backrooms all the time. We should call you 'Backdoor Lanny'.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

That's interesting Lanny, because the Afghani constitution that they passed guarantees freedom of religion. That couldn't be why could it?

Wow, no **** Sherlock. The Afghani constitution guarantees it? Gee, I don't know where I heard that before? Oh wait, it was my post summerizing the details.

So tell me, smart guy, if the right to practice what ever religion you wish is guaranteed in the constitution, why was this guy arrested in the first place? Seems that maybe the constitution was not that binding to the Islamists in the legal system and in the courts. You remember that democratic mechanism don't you? The oft forgotten pillar of democracy in your little "one man, one vote, democracy is working" world!

Oh, and it appears you missed it there Sparky, the court dropped the charges when the US (Bush and Rice) got involved. Now the guy is trying to find a country where he can claim asylum. So why would a guy that has had the charges dropped against him have to apply for asylum?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060327/...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060327...NlYwMlJVRPUCUl

My be a sad existence being as blinkered as a race horse.
my condolences Lanny.

I dunno, it appears the only one wearing blinders around here is you. And now that you mention it, you do sort of look like a race horse. Well, half of one. The south end of a north bound thoroughbred!

It sure is cool how you make it in the backdoor of these backrooms all the time. We should call you 'Backdoor Lanny'.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Is that the best you got? I've been backdooring you this whole thread (I'm suprised you can even walk), so you saying that is kind of funny. Man, try bringing SOMETHING to the argument next time!

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Well.. let's see.. In recent times the far left has supported the Palestinians over Israeli's.. Anyone see Svend 'that was MY diamond' Robinson over there? What an idiot. The left is on the side of Saddam and seemingly the Taliban. Afghanistan WAS sanctioned by the UN and yet the left sill wants Canada to be out of there as well. The left likes to burry their heads in the sand and wish it all away where people with more 'balanced' view points stand up and try to make the world a better place.
Ask the Soldiers who they were hoping to win the last election.

'nuff said in my opinion.

I think this is stupid post of the year.

By your criteria of a left winger, I am for the first time firmly planted on the right.
-On the side of Saddam...nope
-On the side of the Taliban...nope
-Wanting to pull out of Afghanistan...nope
-Supporting Palestinians of Isreal...nope

What a dim generalization of anyone who doesn't worship Bush.

3 pages of embarassing yourself. Don't stop now mbrown.

[mbrown]

Well Winsor, you are by definition not a left winger. Congrats.
I don't like Bush that much at all, I do think that so many people hate him so much that it blinds their perceptions on world events.

And funny, I don't feel embarrassed at all, why should I? I am merely experssing my well-informed opinion on world events. Because I don't agree with Lannt doesn't make me embarassed at all. I just don't pretent to know everything, but the ironic part is, I probably know much more about world events than Lanny does and the historical context in which to take them. I think alot of the differences today is that less and less people are taking history. They are getting all their informaiton from CNN and CBC Newsworld - most don't know to quesiton context and delivery of a message. Most people take the news as unflitered fact.

Like I say, it's my opinion that Iraq and Afghanistan will turn out ok and that it will work. How can I be wrong in expressing my opinion?

I can't. I hope it works out and I am surprised at the flak that I have taken here in expressing that.

I have no problems with people thinking that it won't turn out ok, the problem is with people who HOPE it doesn't turn out ok.

At the end of the day I'd rather be on the side of say the 'dregs of society
(our Canadian Forces that Lanny likes to call them) than the misguided and freeloading pacifists and 'war is bad peace is good crowd'.

[mbrown]

"So tell me, smart guy, if the right to practice what ever religion you wish is guaranteed in the constitution, why was this guy arrested in the first place? Seems that maybe the constitution was not that binding to the Islamists in the legal system and in the courts. You remember that democratic mechanism don't you? The oft forgotten pillar of democracy in your little "one man, one vote, democracy is working" world!

Oh, and it appears you missed it there Sparky, the court dropped the charges when the US (Bush and Rice) got involved. Now the guy is trying to find a country where he can claim asylum. So why would a guy that has had the charges dropped against him have to apply for asylum?"

Oh Lanny, you're reaching - the Afghan consitution has guarantees of freedom of religion - the religious fanatics were demanding that he be executed under Sharia Law - In other words, the Koran.

Thanks for coming out and demonstrating your critical reading skills to us though.