You keep talking as if Jews came in and took something, I am curious where that comes from? Jews came in and brought something: education, democracy, rights, freedom of speech, etc. Those Arabs that stayed have it better than most others.
Oh excellent, I was wondering where you were in all this.
Check my posts. Where did I say any of this? Instead of slinging mud, why not add something constructive to the conversation? How would you go about creating peace in the region?
Probably the best place to post this. Yesterday, Palestine was granted non-member observer state status by the UN General assembly. On the surface, this seems superficial, but it allows Palestine to take Israel to the International Criminal Court on land/water or other issues. I'm not going to lie, I was pretty excited about the news last night. I do wonder how this will play out going forward.
Not a single chance that peace is coming to this region. In fact the opposite would seem to be almost inevitable. Muslim Brotherhood in power in Egypt and perhaps soon in Syria. Absolutely no chance peace comes to an area where there are fanatics bent on the destruction of Israel in charge.
And Israel is NEVER giving up nor should they.
Another bloodbath will happen / just a matter of time to when it starts.
I would agree that it's more critical of Israel but how is it biased? By downplaying the role of Palestinian terror campaigns? Maybe.
I see those as symptons of the systemic issues that are raised by the movie.
It does a good job of boiling down to the essential issues.
Palestinians refugees
Israeli encroachment
Erection of a two tiered society
Lack of any real political will to resolve the crisis
To me that's the basic issue, the violence and militarism are offshoots that affect those but they aren't the causes of the problem.
The video is saying you need to address those to have an actual solution. I don't think any reasonably minded person could disagree.
The bolded part is exactly it. Otherwise it's as unbiased as you'll ever get. It's a great video nonetheless.
Here's an interesting take on the One-state solution by CNN's Farid Zakaria. He thinks the PA should dissolve and then use peaceful protests to call for the rights of the Palestinians to have voting power in Israel. I'm not sure I completely agree with his methodology, but it's definitely interesting.
What about a three state solution? The Gaza strip and the West Bank seem to be going in two different directions with the Gaza strip being more a of a theocracy . This was done in 1948 with India/East Pakistan/West Pakistan and while not really perfect, it has at least moved forward.
You keep talking as if Jews came in and took something, I am curious where that comes from? Jews came in and brought something: education, democracy, rights, freedom of speech, etc. Those Arabs that stayed have it better than most others.
I don't have much knowledge about this region, so I rely on the interweb to get my information. It seems that only some Arabs in Isreal have it better. The more I read about that part of the world, the more I realize how fragmented Israel and the middle east really is...
Here is one article that really made me question things:
Quote:
On the other hand, there's alienation:
Arabs in Israel are not part of the public discourse on how the country is and will be shaped.
Polls in recent years have stopped polling Arabs, specifically mentioning that polls reflect Jewish opinion.
Political parties in the government are elected based on slogans such as "No Loyalty, No Citizenship," suggesting to the Jewish majority that the Arab citizens are somehow collectively not loyal.
Different periods of time brought media onslaught on all popular Israeli TV, repeating mantras like "Arabs are ticking bombs" or "Israeli Arab leadership is inciting hatred and radicalism." All carried out by mainstream, in-government politicians. No other than the current prime minister has called Israeli Arabs "The real demographic threat."
Racism in its purest forms. Remarks on superiority are common. Phrases like "We're not like that, we're not Arabs" are thrown in any negative context.
Every time there's confrontation with an Arab country or militia, we're pitted with the "Others," and racism levels spike for a while
The occupation of Palestinians. We're by definition Palestinians, and folks from the West Bank and Gaza are literally family to many. Seeing them living under military occupation, while we live in relative freedom, mixes feelings even more.
Leading city municipality/community leadership in Israel openly call for racist behavior such as not renting or selling flats to Arabs (Carmiel as an example).
On the flip side. Life is relatively comfortable for the Arab middle class and higher.
Those who meet the socioeconomic bar cannot help but enjoy access to good public health care, purchasing power that satisfies most ordinary people, and decent-paying jobs, even for the working class.
Life is super safe compared to the region. Basic freedoms are mostly upheld by the law and physical attacks due to racism seldom occur. For the more fortunate among us, higher education and hard work are fantastic tools to get ahead into a better life.
The bolded part is exactly it. Otherwise it's as unbiased as you'll ever get. It's a great video nonetheless.
Here's an interesting take on the One-state solution by CNN's Farid Zakaria. He thinks the PA should dissolve and then use peaceful protests to call for the rights of the Palestinians to have voting power in Israel. I'm not sure I completely agree with his methodology, but it's definitely interesting.
Would never work. You have two fundamentally different peolpe. One is a modern society that enjoys full rights and produces more university graduates than any other state in the world. The other is an islmaic society with a huge birth rate.
The "one state" solution is just euphanism for the destruction of Israel. It would be a matter of years before the arabs were the plural majority and elected an islamic "government". The majority of Israelis are descended from refugees from islamic/arab countries. They have no intention of going back.
Not a single chance that peace is coming to this region. In fact the opposite would seem to be almost inevitable. Muslim Brotherhood in power in Egypt and perhaps soon in Syria. Absolutely no chance peace comes to an area where there are fanatics bent on the destruction of Israel in charge.
And Israel is NEVER giving up nor should they.
Another bloodbath will happen / just a matter of time to when it starts.
While I don't think that's an accurate or sufficient description of the situation, I have to say I agree with the sentiment.
A lot more blood needs to be shed before this is over.
While I don't think that's an accurate or sufficient description of the situation, I have to say I agree with the sentiment.
A lot more blood needs to be shed before this is over.
I think the whole Arab Spring thing is going to suck actually. Looked good for the common person for awhile but now it's looking like it's being hijacked. Muslim Brotherhood already looking troublesome in Egypt to put it mildly. Islamists are taking over. So much for democracy on the rise. That will just compound the problems in the Middle East.
I don't see anyway out. I take a look at the list of problems people list and laugh. Here is the actual list of problems.
1. Israel has people/nations that want to wipe it out. Israel's problem.
2. Those who want to wipeout Israel control the agenda from the other side.
There is no moderate position to be had. Until Israel feels safe and the other side has some goal other than wiping them out there is not even anything to talk about.
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I think the whole Arab Spring thing is going to suck actually. Looked good for the common person for awhile but now it's looking like it's being hijacked. Muslim Brotherhood already looking troublesome in Egypt to put it mildly. Islamists are taking over. So much for democracy on the rise. That will just compound the problems in the Middle East.
I don't see anyway out. I take a look at the list of problems people list and laugh. Here is the actual list of problems.
1. Israel has people/nations that want to wipe it out. Israel's problem.
2. Those who want to wipeout Israel control the agenda from the other side.
There is no moderate position to be had. Until Israel feels safe and the other side has some goal other than wiping them out there is not even anything to talk about.
It was pretty funny when the whole Egypt debacle was going on and everyone including Obama supported Mubarak being overthrown who was a pretty peaceful leader and one of the few allies of Israel.
What most people didn't realize is that a very big reason Egyptians didn't like Mubarak was because he supported Israel and they felt like a traitor country. It had nothing to do with democracy but the Western media sure loves to twist stories to make it seem like that was the goal.
Mubarak leaving power was one of the worst things to happen to the state of Israel in a long time and America played a very big role in that happening. Kind of ironic.
Maybe I shouldn't have said that it always happens for every nation, because obviously every situation is different, but specifically for the case of Israel/Palestine, I think there is no option but for the Palestinians to give up on their cause, or suffer huge tragedy. Smarter thing for them to do is to spread out to North America and Europe.
The Arabs living in Israel will eventually have to stop being vocal supportive of palestine as well, I think, for their own sake.
the Jewish will is too strong to have their ownstate, only for them. Thats more admirable that it is disappointing.
(Also, India, specifically, was always an established country. Now Pakstan is one example taht you can point to - but unfortunately, while india rooted out the backward systems from their land, Pak did not and they've suffered for it - they're kid of a failed state now.)
So basically you're saying that Palestinians should accept their fate and disperse around the world abandoning what they see as their historic homeland. Do you see the irony there? That's pretty much what happened to the Jews and led to a history of oppression and exclusion, that ultimately was only redressed by displacing another group and creating a Jewish state after thousands of years of struggle.
If palestinians abandon their claim to a middle-east homeland, they risk suffering the same fate. It's not really surprising that they would strenuously resist regardless of whether they have the entire world against them. I think they see dispersing and abandoning their claim as "a huge tragedy" for their culture.
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onetwo and threefour... Together no more. The end of an era. Let's rebuild...
The video posted is clearly biased against Israel.
- No mention of Jewish refugees from Arab lands that were expelled or ran to Israel in 1948. The video blames Israel for the refugee problem when in fact Arab states share at least some blame. Israel absorbed refugees into their society, Palestinian refugees have no status in the Arab countries where they live and are not allowed to hold jobs or political office.
- When the video mentions the partition plan of 1947 it gets the numbers wrong. The Jews were given less than 50% of the territory and the land they were given was either desert or swampland - the least arable land in the area. Throughout the Ottoman era what we know as Israel was a county within a province. The regional capital was Damascus.
Israeli-Arab political parties have the same say in nation building as the Green Party has a say in Canada. The only Arab country where a Jew even works for the government is Saudi Arabia (I think it is a female ambassador)
The video is leftist propaganda that ignores Jewish ties to the land of Israel, tries to pass off Jewish Nationalism as racist, blames only one side of the conflict, and ignores what Israel has done for peace.
Regarding the Settlements - this is a bit of a red herring. Israel has proven that they will usurp settlers in return for real, albeit cold, peace. Israel removed settlers from Sinai, from Gaza, and had done so to a number of outposts in the West Bank. So far the Palestinians have proven that they cannot stop terror attacks or rockets.
The two state solution is still possible. Everyone knows the outcome, they just need to sit down to get there.
So basically you're saying that Palestinians should accept their fate and disperse around the world abandoning what they see as their historic homeland. Do you see the irony there? That's pretty much what happened to the Jews and led to a history of oppression and exclusion, that ultimately was only redressed by displacing another group and creating a Jewish state after thousands of years of struggle.
If palestinians abandon their claim to a middle-east homeland, they risk suffering the same fate. It's not really surprising that they would strenuously resist regardless of whether they have the entire world against them. I think they see dispersing and abandoning their claim as "a huge tragedy" for their culture.
Prior to Israel's founding, Arabs were allowed to move around freely in the Ottoman empire. After the founding of Israel special rules were created to define people as "Palestinian refugees". All people who had lived within Israel for 2 years or more and their descendents were defined as Palestinian "refugees". This is a definition different from all other definitions of a refugee.
It wasn't just Jews who migrated to what is now Israel in the late 1800s and early 1900s, it was arabs too. Look at the population figures. There's no way that was purely natural growth.
Currently, all arabs not only refuse to give Palestinian "refugees" citizenship, they deny them the right to own property. Yasser Arafat himself had an Egyptian grandmother. He lived in Egypt for his early life. He was, however, barred from inheriting his grandmother's property or gaining Egyptian citizenship.
Noone is asking arabs to accept being "dispersed around the world". The vast majority of the refugees live in the surrounding arab countries, which border Israel. Prior to the end of WWI all of Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, were part of the Ottoman province of Syria. The idea that all arabs are incable of being settled in neighbouring countries that they have lived in for 50+ years is ridiculous.
Prior to WWI, there was no Israel, there was no Palestine, there was no Sudan, Lebanon, Syria, etc... It was all the Ottoman Empire. Jews and Arabs lived there as citizens. We aren't talking about a massive dispersal of people around the world. We're talking about a population transfer, which happens just about every time a new state is founded.
A big issue here is both sides are throwing up their arms and yelling 'What choice do we have!?' as a justification for violence.
There's one problem with this though. Israel is yelling it from bulldozers that are illegally destroying Palestinian homes to provide lebensraum* for settlers. Israel is yelling it from planes and rockets that kill Palestinians by the hundreds, who have little way to defend themselves. Israel is yelling it while controlling Arab access to the economy and goods with racist and exclusionary policy.
Fact is, Israel has lots of choices, but they pursue ones based on hawkish and entitled principles which do far more to harm any peace process than anything the Palestinians could ever hope to do. And then they claim they have no other choice but to commit their atrocities, while gleefully saying on Twitter that Gazan citizens will have a tough time sleeping at night.
I'm not saying the Palestinians are completely right and not deserving of criticism. To an extent, terrorist groups invite Israel's wrath. I can at least understand why Palestinians react the way they do. Israel... all I can do is shake my head and wonder why.
*lebensraum is the wrong term to use here, given it's connection with the Nazis. I'll admit it was insensitive and incorrect correlation.
Last edited by WesternCanadaKing; 11-30-2012 at 05:32 PM.
So basically you're saying that Palestinians should accept their fate and disperse around the world abandoning what they see as their historic homeland. Do you see the irony there? That's pretty much what happened to the Jews and led to a history of oppression and exclusion, that ultimately was only redressed by displacing another group and creating a Jewish state after thousands of years of struggle.
Can you please provide some detail around this displacement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour
If palestinians abandon their claim to a middle-east homeland, they risk suffering the same fate. It's not really surprising that they would strenuously resist regardless of whether they have the entire world against them. I think they see dispersing and abandoning their claim as "a huge tragedy" for their culture.
Palestinians should abandon and reject violence, it might not be too late, but it is getting pretty close.
Making it seem like Israel is the only player in the game is being dishonest. Ignoring the Jewish refugees is also dishonest.
A big issue here is both sides are throwing up their arms and yelling 'What choice do we have!?' as a justification for violence.
I don't see Palestinians throwing up their arms like that, unless Hamas is pointing an AK47 at them. They need to reject violence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing
There's one problem with this though. Israel is yelling it from bulldozers that are illegally destroying Palestinian homes to provide lebensraum for settlers. Israel is yelling it from planes and rockets that kill Palestinians by the hundreds, who have little way to defend themselves. Israel is yelling it while controlling Arab access to the economy and goods with racist and exclusionary policy.
This CP is what an anti Semitic post looks like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing
Fact is, Israel has lots of choices, but they pursue ones based on hawkish and entitled principles which do far more to harm any peace process than anything the Palestinians could ever hope to do. And then they claim they have no other choice but to commit their atrocities, while gleefully saying on Twitter that Gazan citizens will have a tough time sleeping at night.
Some details to support these points would be nice, but I doubt you have any. Israel building houses does more to hurt the peace process than Hamas firing rockets, interesting theory. Your post is pure hate and rhetoric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternCanadaKing
I'm not saying the Palestinians are completely right and not deserving of criticism. To an extent, terrorist groups invite Israel's wrath. I can at least understand why Palestinians react the way they do. Israel... all I can do is shake my head and wonder why.
You shake your head because the only source of your material is hateful propaganda.
Israel on Friday approved the construction of 3,000 homes in Jewish settlements on Israeli-occupied lands, a government official said, drawing swift condemnation from the Palestinians a day after their successful UN recognition bid.
[ . . . ]
The Israeli official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the sensitive issue publicly, said Israel decided to build 3,000 apartments for Jews in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. He said the government also decided to begin preparations for construction in other areas of the West Bank, including the so-called E-1 corridor that connects Jerusalem with the settlement bloc of Maaleh Adumim.
Construction there would pose a major obstacle for Palestinian statehood by cutting off east Jerusalem from the West Bank. Successive U.S. administrations have pressured Israel not to build in E-1 where a development plan calls for at least 3,500 homes.
[ . . . ]
“The decision at the UN on a Palestinian state is bad for Israel and so is Netanyahu’s response,” said Livni, who this week formed a new party to compete in Jan. 22 parliamentary elections. “The decision to build thousands of housing units as punishment to the Palestinians only punishes Israel … the unnecessary statement only isolates Israel further.”
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