Arab Spring : Were the end results the same crap just a different day?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Thor

As long as the people of these nations are so deeply religious, hold their beliefs as so integral part of their daily lives then they will be much more likely to accept theocratic rule.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It is important to realise that unlike christianity theocratic rule is pretty well built into the Koran.
I do not mean this as perjorative, it is just the reality of a religeon that developed as a nation building force rather than Christianity that essentially developed as a minor cult that became powerfull after its tenants were, to a large degree, set.
The Koran codifies taxation policy and the like to a degree that makes a secular islamic country difficult to acheive.

So are you pretty much saying that the middle east is doomed to be ruled by despots and religious zealots, in the foreseeable future?

[Thor]

That what it looks like, I see them slowly moving towards a Turkey style government but lets be realistic, look how long it too EU to move away from king and church.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rerun

So are you pretty much saying that the middle east is doomed to be ruled by despots and religious zealots, in the foreseeable future?

Most of the world is ruled by depsots and has been since the dawn of civilization (and likely before). Free and liberal democracy is nice to have, but it is expensive and requires a level of tolerance that typically only occurs when competition for resources is not an issue. Throughout the history of human civilization, free democracies would pop up during times of economic glory, but they were usually short lived and spurred by colonialism and plunder which resulted in a surplus of resources thereby limiting competition amongst the populous.

I think it's foolish when people think that it can implemented anywhere as if it is the natural order of things. If anything, it eventually becomes unsustainable.

[Rerun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

[FlamesAddiction]

^^^^^^^^^^


And that is about as good as it has ever been. I'm not optimisitc that it will keep getting better though. If anything, as popluations increase and climate change (whatever the cause) threatening to raise sea levels and alter some of out best agricultural land, I expect the competition for resources to bring more authoritarian regimes in the future.

[Vulcan]

I'm not so pessimistic. As education gets better and communication gets easier and cheaper, people will demand more freedoms.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

It is important to realise that unlike christianity theocratic rule is pretty well built into the Koran.
I do not mean this as perjorative, it is just the reality of a religeon that developed as a nation building force rather than Christianity that essentially developed as a minor cult that became powerfull after its tenants were, to a large degree, set.
The Koran codifies taxation policy and the like to a degree that makes a secular islamic country difficult to acheive.

Christianity was started as a political movement within Jerusalem. After that, it really didn't gain headway until the Roman Empire converted. Christianity was very much linked with the state for many many centuries. The old and new testament also contain far more rules about many things, including economics, than you are letting on.

It's totally possible to take a more secular view towards Islam, just as it is any other religion.

[Flash Walken]

Islam needs a protestant reformation.

[Rerun]

For reference... definitely appears to be a somewhat correlation... with a few notable exceptions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I'm not so pessimistic. As education gets better and communication gets easier and cheaper, people will demand more freedoms.

I would hope so! Also isn't the demographic in Egypt and that region in general really young? something like over 50% of the population is under the age of 35?

[burn_this_city]

Indonesia seems to be doing good, most populous Muslim nation in the world.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Islam needs a protestant reformation.

I agree, they need their own version of Martin Luther but I don't see anyone that would be willing to act in that role.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree, they need their own version of Martin Luther but I don't see anyone that would be willing to act in that role.

Yes but how long would he live? I wouldn't put bets on a long life expectancy. The problems there are more than just religion. Even the religious right have very little regard for human rights.

I think secular education is the key. With education comes computers and with computer access you have the internet.... and where else can you find a greater library of knowledge and exposure to other points of view, than the internet?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Yes but how long would he live? I wouldn't put bets on a long life expectancy. The problems there are more than just religion. Even the religious right have very little regard for human rights.

I think secular education is the key. With education comes computers and with computer access you have the internet.... and where else can you find a greater library of knowledge and exposure to other points of view, than the internet?

As bad as things are in the islamic world now, they were much worse in the Christian world around the time of Luther. Luther was born in 1483. At that time, you had inquisition, witch trials, Puritanism, etc... all occurring. There were a lot of people who wanted Luther dead.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Indonesia seems to be doing good, most populous Muslim nation in the world.

They also have lots and lots of issues, I would rather point to a relatively secular Turkey as a good example.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...us-freedom-aan

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Yes but how long would he live? I wouldn't put bets on a long life expectancy. The problems there are more than just religion. Even the religious right have very little regard for human rights.

I think secular education is the key. With education comes computers and with computer access you have the internet.... and where else can you find a greater library of knowledge and exposure to other points of view, than the internet?

I don't know if I agree with you. If you look at the profiles of a lot of the terrorists involved in 9/11 for example. These were not stupid people that came from camel farms to strike terror. There were university students and Western influenced young people who were still radicalized.

Even with that high level of education they were still exposed to a virulent form of their religion and they were converted to it.

Education can only take you so far, at some point someone has to be brave enough to stand up and effectively argue about the hypocrisy of radical hate based Islam and work to moderate the religion.

The hate filled leaders in Iran are all highly educated, they all have access to the internet and they still hate because they were taught to hate.

Education is a laudable goal, Islam is a scholarly religion it always has been a religion that encourages service to education. Until you pull out the radical sects of Islam by the roots and expose it for the cancer it is education in that region isn't going to make a difference.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Rerun

For reference... definitely appears to be a somewhat correlation... with a few notable exceptions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

The "Vote for Jesus" campaign has been very successful.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The "Vote for Jesus" campaign has been very successful.

Except where it all started and the surrounding areas. Odd.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Except where it all started and the surrounding areas. Odd.

... and almost all of sub-saharan Africa, Russia, parts of Latin and South America. This leads me to believe that the causal link between Christianity and democracy is not very strong (if it exists at all.)

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Makarov

... and almost all of sub-saharan Africa, Russia, parts of Latin and South America. This leads me to believe that the causal link between Christianity and democracy is not very strong (if it exists at all.)

I beg to differ on Russia and Latin and South America.