Arab Spring : Were the end results the same crap just a different day?

[Rerun]

Will Egypt turn into another Iran?

Morsi 'power grab' angers Egypt opposition groups
Leaders call for Friday protests as ElBaradei says president has appointed himself Egypt's new pharaoh

Egyptian opposition groups are calling for mass protests amid mounting anger at President Mohamed Morsi's surprise decision to give himself, and the Islamist-dominated assembly writing Egypt's new constitution, extraordinary new powers.

Morsi already has both executive and legislative powers since the dissolution of the parliament's lower assembly, and has now added what appears to be a monopoly of judicial authority, placing himself beyond the courts while appointing a hand-picked prosecutor without consultation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ion?intcmp=239

[longsuffering]

Wow. Nice thread title.

[Rerun]

Among those who attended the Morsi rally was Nour din-Mohamed, a broadcast personality on a Muslim Brotherhood television channel noted for his sarcastic critiques of opponents of the movement. Surrounded by admirers, he said: "The people gathering in Tahrir are trying to blackmail the revolution. Revolution means change and they are standing in the way of it.

"The decree was a matter of necessity. The revolution was not just about changing Mubarak's name to Morsi, it was about transforming our society. That progress was being delayed. If Morsi had not pushed on this matter we would have pushed him harder."

As he spoke, a loudspeaker address from a makeshift platform accused those in Tahrir of trying to prevent the imposition of sharia law, while others chanted in favour of the implementation of Islamic law. In other signs that the move by Morsi may have a wider significance, many carried printed sheets of paper demanding that Egypt's media, which have been generally hostile to the decree, should also be "cleansed" after Morsi's moves against the judiciary on Thursday, which saw him sack the Mubarak-era chief prosecutor.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide...deo?intcmp=239

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Wow. Nice thread title.

Thats your only comment? A critique on my thread title?
Fine... I'll change it just to make you happy. Long suffering indeed.

[CaptainCrunch]

That region is eventually going to slide into the majority of those countries either fighting never ending civil wars, or governments falling on a regular basis.

Stability will go out the window as the radicalization of average citizens continues to become more popular.

We're going to see a regional death toll in the next 10 years that boggles the mind.

[Yeah_Baby]

You mean you can't just shock a country that as spent three generations following thirdworldism into a Western liberalized democracy?

[burn_this_city]

I'm sort of unsure whether or not this move is 100% bad. The majority of the high level judges are Mubarak era appointments. They were one of the remaining parts of the old regime that had a strong lever of power, and they used to it dissolve the parliament and constitutional drafting committee. I think if Morsi steps over the line the Military will take over again through an armed coup. It remains to be seen what kind of constitution will be drafted, and whether or not he cements these "provisional" measures.

[Rerun]

Seems to me that the Egyptians were fighting for one thing during the Arab Spring and ended up getting something completely different.... and more repressive than what they had. Talk about getting the rug pulled out from under your feet.

In a series of moves, President Morsi has used the nearly absolute authority he assumed last August to try to put that absolute authority beyond reach, at least, as he promises, on a temporary basis.

I would be shocked to see him give back the power now that he has it.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Seems to me that the Egyptians were fighting for one thing during the Arab Spring and ended up getting something completely different.... and more repressive than what they had. Talk about getting the rug pulled out from under your feet.

Were they though? They wanted to remove Mubarak. Perhaps it was Western Media that claimed they wanted the gospel of Westernized Democracy.

[Kipperriffic]

Its the public who has a wrong perception of what a "spring" or a "revolution" is. Maybe its because of way too many fictional stories/movies or just ignorance, but people think that there was a struggle between 'good" and "bad" in arab spring. In history, revolutions have never been that black and white. French revolution is a big example where 1 group comes in power, gets slaughtered, another one comes in power, gets slaughtered, so on and so on. It takes many many decades, and most likely a century, for a revolution to reach its "conclusion".

Another thing: "Democracy" is never successful if we're hoping a country like egypt to just accept it the way "westerners" do it. Their thought process has to change: they have to answer "WHY do we want democracy?" not "we must get democracy". You cant just expect another nation with a different culture to accept democracy the way it exists here. They have to look at it through their own cultural and religious lens, and somehow find a way to connect their religious ideals with personal freedoms and rights. It would never work otherwise. For example, The US founding fathers got people against the monarch because they told them that their rights are God given, and that a king can't be a intermediary between them and their rights - this thought connected very strongly with people and I think was a great factor is US "winning" the revolution. The Arabs will always be muslims and they must find a way over time to reconcile religion with personal rights.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Seems to me that the Egyptians were fighting for one thing during the Arab Spring and ended up getting something completely different.... and more repressive than what they had. Talk about getting the rug pulled out from under your feet.

In a series of moves, President Morsi has used the nearly absolute authority he assumed last August to try to put that absolute authority beyond reach, at least, as he promises, on a temporary basis.

I would be shocked to see him give back the power now that he has it.

I don't think what they have is more repressive, the media there is far freer to report and discuss things that were off limits during the old regime.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Thats your only comment? A critique on my thread title?
Fine... I'll change it just to make you happy. Long suffering indeed.

I just find it amusing that you can work yourself into a lather about Justin Trudeau's comments that referenced Alberta and then you come up with the gem you did about Arabs/Egyptians.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Were they though? They wanted to remove Mubarak. Perhaps it was Western Media that claimed they wanted to gospel of Westernized Democracy.

The only people who think that this was anything other than a military coup are people who want to point to the power of social media and western journalists who have romanticized the whole thing as an organic rise of the population. There are about 82M people in Egypt; 9M in Cairo alone, so the idea that say 350-400,000 could get together in Tahrir Square and press for change is just silly. It was pretty clearly a little more orchestrated than this.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Slava

The only people who think that this was anything other than a military coup are people who want to point to the power of social media and western journalists who have romanticized the whole thing as an organic rise of the population. There are about 82M people in Egypt; 9M in Cairo alone, so the idea that say 350-400,000 could get together in Tahrir Square and press for change is just silly. It was pretty clearly a little more orchestrated than this.

Exactly. In fact if you look at the rise of Nassar in Egypt it plaid out very similar to the fall of Mubarak (which may be slightly ironic). Both uprisings needed military support. And it when it was clear that the military was not going to back Mubarak, that's when everything started to escalate.

Look at the Green Movement in Iran. Very similar protests to Tahrir Square in Cairo. But at the end of the day, it didn't get the movement anywhere.

[Regulator75]

Is this like an Indian Summer?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Kipperriffic

Its the public who has a wrong perception of what a "spring" or a "revolution" is. Maybe its because of way too many fictional stories/movies or just ignorance, but people think that there was a struggle between 'good" and "bad" in arab spring. In history, revolutions have never been that black and white. French revolution is a big example where 1 group comes in power, gets slaughtered, another one comes in power, gets slaughtered, so on and so on. It takes many many decades, and most likely a century, for a revolution to reach its "conclusion".

Another thing: "Democracy" is never successful if we're hoping a country like egypt to just accept it the way "westerners" do it. Their thought process has to change: they have to answer "WHY do we want democracy?" not "we must get democracy". You cant just expect another nation with a different culture to accept democracy the way it exists here. They have to look at it through their own cultural and religious lens, and somehow find a way to connect their religious ideals with personal freedoms and rights. It would never work otherwise. For example, The US founding fathers got people against the monarch because they told them that their rights are God given, and that a king can't be a intermediary between them and their rights - this thought connected very strongly with people and I think was a great factor is US "winning" the revolution. The Arabs will always be muslims and they must find a way over time to reconcile religion with personal rights.

Big difference in between using religious morals as a baiss for society's laws and actually enforcing a religion on the population. Every country is going to have some influence from the majority religion in their laws and moral code. However, this idea that we need to put up with theocracy in the name of cultural relativism is BS.

Also, what the "founding fathers" created was a very important step on the way to what we have now, but was a long way from what we have now today too. Women couldn't vote, slavery was legal, etcc. We should not be using anything that happened 250 years ago as the standard for now.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I just find it amusing that you can work yourself into a lather about Justin Trudeau's comments that referenced Alberta and then you come up with the gem you did about Arabs/Egyptians.

What gem? The original title was "Arab Spring : same #### just a different day?

.... which is exactly what I'm saying in my revised title... I just clarified it a bit.

Longsuffering, you look for problems that don't exist.

Just because you've got a hard on for me, don't start making stuff up. Grow up.

[Kipperriffic]

Originally Posted by blankall

However, this idea that we need to put up with theocracy in the name of cultural relativism is BS.

Also, what the "founding fathers" created was a very important step on the way to what we have now, but was a long way from what we have now today too. Women couldn't vote, slavery was legal, etcc. We should not be using anything that happened 250 years ago as the standard for now.

Never said we have to put up with theocracy.

Never said that it was the standard.

[Thor]

As long as the people of these nations are so deeply religious, hold their beliefs as so integral part of their daily lives then they will be much more likely to accept theocratic rule.

[afc wimbledon]

It is important to realise that unlike christianity theocratic rule is pretty well built into the Koran.
I do not mean this as perjorative, it is just the reality of a religeon that developed as a nation building force rather than Christianity that essentially developed as a minor cult that became powerfull after its tenants were, to a large degree, set.
The Koran codifies taxation policy and the like to a degree that makes a secular islamic country difficult to acheive.