Calgary Centre Federal By-election - Nov 26 (UPDATE - Crockatt wins for CPC)

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

LOL, so Justin Trudeau had an interesting interview from 2010 in French. This should go over well here.

If you think that the firewall letter from Harper was fine then these comments shouldn't cause any concerns either.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

If you think that the firewall letter from Harper was fine then these comments shouldn't cause any concerns either.

Since you brought it up....

I think it deserves to be displayed in its entirety to demonstrate that its really apples and oranges when compared to the statements made by Justin Trudeau.

The famous Alberta “firewall” letter

Dear Premier Klein:

During and since the recent federal election, we have been among a large number of Albertans
discussing the future of our province. We are not dismayed by the outcome of the election so
much as by the strategy employed by the current federal government to secure its re-election. In
our view, the Chretien government undertook a series of attacks not merely designed to defeat its
partisan opponents, but to marginalize Alberta and Albertans within Canada’s political system.

One well-documented incident was the attack against Alberta’s health care system. To your
credit, you vehemently protested the unprecedented attack ads that the federal government
launched against Alberta’s policies – policies the Prime Minister had previously found no fault
with.

However, while your protest was necessary and appreciated by Albertans, we believe that it is
not enough to respond only with protests. If the government in Ottawa concludes that Alberta is a
soft target, we will be subjected to much worse than dishonest television ads. The Prime Minister
has already signaled as much by announcing his so called “tough love” campaign for the West.

We believe the time has come for Albertans to take greater charge of our own future. This
means resuming control of the powers that we possess under the constitution of Canada but that
we have allowed the federal government to exercise. Intelligent use of these powers will help
Alberta build a prosperous future in spite of a misguided and increasingly hostile government in
Ottawa.

Under the heading of the “Alberta Agenda,” we propose that our province move forward on the
following fronts:

-Withdraw from the Canada Pension Plan to create an Alberta Pension Plan offering the
same benefits at lower cost while giving Alberta control over the investment fund. Pensions
are a provincial responsibility under section 94A of the Constitution Act. 1867; and the
legislation setting up the Canada Pension Plan permits a province to run its own plan, as
Quebec has done from the beginning. If Quebec can do it, why not Alberta?

-Collect our own revenue from personal income tax, as we already do for corporate income
tax. Now that your government has made the historic innovation of the single-rate personal
income tax, there is no reason to have Ottawa collect our revenue. Any incremental cost of
collecting our own personal income tax would be far outweighed by the policy flexibility
that Alberta would gain, as Quebec’s experience has shown.

-Start preparing now to let the contract with the RCMP run out in 2012 and create an Alberta
Provincial Police Force. Alberta is a major province. Like the other major provinces of
Ontario and Quebec, we should have our own provincial police force. We have no doubt
that Alberta can run a more efficient and effective police force than Ottawa can – one that
will not be misused as a laboratory for experiments in social engineering.

-Resume provincial responsibility for health-care policy. If Ottawa objects to provincial
policy, fight in the courts. If we lose, we can afford the financial penalties that Ottawa may
try to impose under the Canada Health Act. Albertans deserve better than the long waiting
periods and technological backwardness that are rapidly coming to characterize Canadian
medicine. Alberta should also argue that each province should raise its own revenue for
health care – i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points as Quebec
has argued for many years. Poorer provinces would continue to rely on Equalization to
ensure they have adequate revenues.

-Use section 88 of the Supreme Court’s decision in the Quebec Secession Reference to force
Senate reform back onto the national agenda. Our reading of that decision is that the federal
government and other provinces must seriously consider a proposal for constitutional reform
endorsed by “a clear majority on a clear question” in a provincial referendum. You acted
decisively once before to hold a senatorial election. Now is the time to drive the issue
further.

All of these steps can be taken using the constitutional powers that Alberta now possesses. In
addition, we believe it is imperative for you to take all possible political and legal measures to
reduce the financial drain on Alberta caused by Canada’s tax-and-transfer system. The most
recent Alberta Treasury estimates are that Albertans transfer $2,600 per capita annually to other
Canadians, for a total outflow from our province approaching $8 billion a year. The same federal
politicians who accuse us of not sharing their “Canadian values” have no compunction about
appropriating our Canadian dollars to buy votes elsewhere in the country.

Mr. Premier, we acknowledge the constructive reforms that your government made in the 1990s
– balancing the budget, paying down the provincial debt, privatizing government services, getting
Albertans off welfare and into jobs, introducing a single-rate tax, pulling government out of the
business of subsidizing business, and many other beneficial changes. But no government can rest
on its laurels. An economic slowdown, and perhaps even recession, threatens North America, the
government in Ottawa will be tempted to take advantage of Alberta’s prosperity, to redistribute
income from Alberta to residents of other provinces in order to keep itself in power. It is
imperative to take the initiative, to build firewalls around Alberta, to limit the extent to which an
aggressive and hostile federal government can encroach upon legitimate provincial jurisdiction.

Once Alberta’s position is secured, only our imagination will limit the prospects for extending
the reform agenda that your government undertook eight years ago. To cite only a few examples,
lower taxes will unleash the energies of the private sector, easing conditions for Charter Schools
will help individual freedom and improve public education, and greater use of the referendum and
initiative will bring Albertans into closer touch with their own government.

The precondition for the success of this Alberta Agenda is the exercise of all our legitimate
provincial jurisdictions under the constitution of Canada. Starting to act now will secure the
future for all Albertans.

Sincerely yours,

Stephen HARPER, President, National Citizens’ Coalition;
Tom FLANAGAN, professor of political science and former Director of Research, Reform
Party of Canada;
Ted MORTON, professor of political science and Alberta Senator-elect;
Rainer KNOPFF, professor of political science;
Andrew CROOKS, chairman, Canadian Taxpayers Federation;
Ken BOESSENKOOL, former policy adviser to Stockwell Day, Treasurer of Alberta.

* This letter represents the personal views of its authors and not those of any organizations with
which they are or have been connected.

(As published in the National Post on Jan. 24, 2001, headlined “An open letter to Ralph Klein”)

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Since you brought it up....

I think it deserves to be displayed in its entirety to demonstrate that its really apples and oranges when compared to the statements made by Justin Trudeau.

Its really not apples and oranges at all. The same way that Albertans think that the government is better when Albertans run it, Trudeau thinks that the government is better when Quebecers run it. What's the big deal?

You know what this really is though? A desperate attempt for the CPC to move the needle in Calgary Centre. They see whats going on here and presumably their internal polling shows that they're in trouble. Its too late to actually pay attention and do something proactive so now we see this 2 year old "breaking news" instead as a purely reactive jab.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Its really not apples and oranges at all. The same way that Albertans think that the government is better when Albertans run it, Trudeau thinks that the government is better when Quebecers run it. What's the big deal?

You know what this really is though? A desperate attempt for the CPC to move the needle in Calgary Centre. They see whats going on here and presumably their internal polling shows that they're in trouble. Its too late to actually pay attention and do something proactive so now we see this 2 year old "breaking news" instead as a purely reactive jab.

I would be very interested if you can demonstrate where a public figure in federal politics has said this:



Canada isn't doing well right now because it's Quebecers who control our community and socio-democratic agenda. It doesn't work."

Re the question if he thought Canada was "better served when there are more Albertans in charge than Quebecers?"

John Doe replied: "I'm a Conservative, so of course I think so, yes. This country - Canada - it belongs to us."




What arrogance!!!! Just like his father in so many ways....

[SebC]

I think Trudeau's right. The specific Albertans who are running the country are doing a pretty bad job on socio-economic policy.

We also do stuff like reject anti-bullying policies. Go us!

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I would be very interested if you can demonstrate where a public figure in federal politics has said this:



Canada isn't doing well right now because it's Quebecers who control our community and socio-democratic agenda. It doesn't work."

Re the question if he thought Canada was "better served when there are more Albertans in charge than Quebecers?"

John Doe replied: "I'm a Conservative, so of course I think so, yes. This country - Canada - it belongs to us."




What arrogance!!!! Just like his father in so many ways....

Really? You can't see that exact phrase being uttered around Calgary? You really think that sentiment would be unpopular here? I can't reason with you here because you don't seriously believe that yourself!

Like I say though, this is two year old news. Who cares? The CPC is obviously afraid that they will lose Monday. We saw this in 2011 when they made sure to get the last ditch "Layton got a massage" story out on the eve of the election and now this. So transparent.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by SebC

I think Trudeau's right. The specific Albertans who are running the country are doing a pretty bad job on socio-economic policy.

We also do stuff like reject anti-bullying policies. Go us!

What is this? Bate and switch? Your story has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Your story is about a school board trustee problem. The last I heard the federal government had nothing to do with provincial school boards.

Good try though.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Really? You can't see that exact phrase being uttered around Calgary? You really think that sentiment would be unpopular here? I can't reason with you here because you don't seriously believe that yourself!

Like I say though, this is two year old news. Who cares? The CPC is obviously afraid that they will lose Monday. We saw this in 2011 when they made sure to get the last ditch "Layton got a massage" story out on the eve of the election and now this. So transparent.

You are right... I could probably find someone right here at work who thinks exactly that.... big difference though... they aren't federal MP's and they definitely are not running to be the leader of a federal party.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You are right... I could probably find someone right here at work who thinks exactly that.... big difference though... they aren't federal MP's and they definitely are not running to be the leader of a federal party.

If I had a dime for every time a conservative MP made a stupid statement I'd have more money than Warren Buffett. I could start with Rob Anders, but figure I might as well keep it with Harper himself:

"Canada appears to be content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting...to mask its second rate status"

Stephen Harper, Dec 8, 2000

(Probably within the timeframe for breaking news on the Sun News Network!)

[Tinordi]

This thread sure took a left turn.

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This thread sure took a left turn.

Or did it take a Right turn?

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Rerun

What is this? Bate and switch? Your story has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Your story is about a school board trustee problem. The last I heard the federal government had nothing to do with provincial school boards.

Good try though.

Having crap policies at the local and federal levels are symptomatic of the same issues...

You wanna talk about federal issues, fine, let's talk about federal issues.

Are the following not results of having Albertans in charge?

- Relaxed gun control laws.
- Copyright laws where digital locks supercede fair use.
- Unprecedent use of omnibus budgets (the opposite of transparency and accountability)
- Government found in contempt of parliament.
- Government that was unwilling to engage in economic stimulus until threatened with a non-confidence vote.
- Punishment-oriented crime bill that based on experiences in other jurisdictions will be an ineffective waste of money.
- Loss of judiciary discretion for marijuana crimes.
- Inefficient tax cut (GST).
- Structural deficit created by vastly increasing non-cyclical spending.

I posted the school board thing because it was news, but there's a long list of Conservative transgressions we can talk about instead - and all of them are because we have Albertans in charge.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This thread sure took a left turn.

Ya, my apologies. I should've just ignored the obvious trolling. I can't lie though...the fact that the CPC has stopped this low just excites me because they know they're in trouble.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You are right... I could probably find someone right here at work who thinks exactly that.... big difference though... they aren't federal MP's and they definitely are not running to be the leader of a federal party.

Seeing the Sun dredge up a two-year old quote from a person who wasn't the leader of the party at that time, and--let's face it--may NEVER be the leader of the party, is the first convincing evidence I've seen that the Tories believe they could lose this riding.

I'm also a little skeptical that it could move the needle at this point. Negative attitudes about Trudeau are pretty much priced into the poll numbers at this point. He has some things going for him, but "popularity in Alberta" is not one of them. Pointing to him as though he's some eastern boogeyman that should scare people away from voting for Locke just smacks of desperation in my opinion.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

If I had a dime for every time a conservative MP made a stupid statement I'd have more money than Warren Buffett. I could start with Rob Anders, but figure I might as well keep it with Harper himself:

"Canada appears to be content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting...to mask its second rate status"

Stephen Harper, Dec 8, 2000

(Probably within the timeframe for breaking news on the Sun News Network!)

The difference is that Harper did not say "Quebec appears to be content to become a second-tier socialistic province, boasting...to mask its second rate status"

But go ahead, twist it how ever you want....

What JT said was reprehensible for someone who someday wants to become PM of all of Canada.

Statements like this, by JT, confirm my suspicions about him. All flash and not much substance, with a tendency towards foot in mouth disease.... which is fine by me... as he will make a fine Liberal leader from a CPC perspective.

[c.t.ner]

Originally Posted by Slava

Ya, my apologies. I should've just ignored the obvious trolling. I can't lie though...the fact that the CPC has stopped this low just excites me because they know they're in trouble.

I'm still not sure that McGuinty or Trudeau's comments will really shift things in this race. If the softer Red Tories were already abandoning Crockatt for Harvey or Turner, I don't think these comments are really going to change anything. It's good fodder for the hyper partisans, but I doubt this is a real game changer.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

I'm still not sure that McGuinty or Trudeau's comments will really shift things in this race. If the softer Red Tories were already abandoning Crockatt for Harvey or Turner, I don't think these comments are really going to change anything. It's good fodder for the hyper partisans, but I doubt this is a real game changer.

I think you have to be really partisan to think it's anything other than "meh."

It basically amounts to:

BREAKING NEWS: SOMEONE YOU ALREADY DON'T LIKE SAID SOMETHING A LONG TIME AGO THAT YOU CAN BE OFFENDED BY IF YOU CHOOSE TO!!!

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

I'm still not sure that McGuinty or Trudeau's comments will really shift things in this race. If the softer Red Tories were already abandoning Crockatt for Harvey or Turner, I don't think these comments are really going to change anything. It's good fodder for the hyper partisans, but I doubt this is a real game changer.

I think it could make a difference with people who don't follow politics religiously... the fence sitters.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by SebC

Having crap policies at the local and federal levels are symptomatic of the same issues...

You wanna talk about federal issues, fine, let's talk about federal issues.

Are the following not results of having Albertans in charge?

- Relaxed gun control laws.
- Copyright laws where digital locks supercede fair use.
- Unprecedent use of omnibus budgets (the opposite of transparency and accountability)
- Government found in contempt of parliament.
- Government that was unwilling to engage in economic stimulus until threatened with a non-confidence vote.
- Punishment-oriented crime bill that based on experiences in other jurisdictions will be an ineffective waste of money.
- Loss of judiciary discretion for marijuana crimes.
- Inefficient tax cut (GST).
- Structural deficit created by vastly increasing non-cyclical spending.

I posted the school board thing because it was news, but there's a long list of Conservative transgressions we can talk about instead - and all of them are because we have Albertans in charge.

One man's poison is another man's cure.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

The difference is that Harper did not say "Quebec appears to be content to become a second-tier socialistic province, boasting...to mask its second rate status"

But go ahead, twist it how ever you want....

What JT said was reprehensible for someone who someday wants to become PM of all of Canada.

Statements like this, by JT, confirm my suspicions about him. All flash and not much substance, with a tendency towards foot in mouth disease.... which is fine by me... as he will make a fine Liberal leader from a CPC perspective.

Alright, one last post on this CPC desperation, and I apologize to those who read this thread and just want to talk about Calgary Centre, but here goes:

"atlantic Canada's culture of defeat will be hard to overcome" 29-May-2002

"We've had this Quebec separatist movement. For years we elected Quebec Prime Ministers...this has not worked" June 1997

"Canada is a northern European welfare state in the worst sense of the term and very proud of it" June 1997

"Ridings the Liberals hold are dominated by people who live in ghettoes...not integrated into western Canadian society"

Every quote from Harper.

I'm done with this topic. Lets just enjoy the hopeful demise of the CPC on Monday in Calgary Centre.