Pornography, “Family Values”, and a Sexually Liberal Society

[bcsoda]

Originally Posted by gargamel

In the vast majority of non-Asian porn that I've seen, both the men and the women appear to be enjoying the experience (the Japanese are up to some weird stuff, but that's a topic for another day). To think that this is somehow demeaning to women would require the kind of sexist attitude that rubecube pretty well deconstructed earlier in this thread.

That aside, though, would you have a problem with your partner watching homemade porn? If a couple films themselves making love and posts it on a free website, no one is being disrespected and no industry is being supported. If you'd have a problem with that, then I think the whole "porn is demeaning to women" line is just an excuse to justify the other reasons that you are uncomforatable with pornography.

I honestly haven't seen enough porn to argue whether you're right or not, but I will admit that I think my tolerance for what's considered demeaning may be much lower than that of other people, particularly those who regularly watch porn. Also, I think there's a difference between actually enjoying what's happening and being paid to enjoy what's happening. I may not like my job, but if you pay me enough money to do it I can sure as hell act like it.

In regards to your other question...I had written a response, but I don't think it fully articulates my thoughts, and since it's 2am where I am I should probably go to bed and figure out what to say another day.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Reference.

Good luck.

[HPLovecraft]

In case anyone is actually interested, a more modern theory concerning fertility decline is the kin influence hypothesis, something that is actually being supported by an accumulating body of empirical evidence.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Good luck.

*insert link to blog containing sexist babble and incoherent logic*

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Reference.

Feminism has fomented tension between men and women. This is because women have a natural hypergamous instinct. Example - the male doctor will marry the nurse, but rarely the other way around.

Alot of women have forsaken marriage/family in their youth to pursue careers/degrees only to get left in the cold ages 30-35 when tyring to find a husband who has more status relative to theirs.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Feminism has fomented tension between men and women. This is because women have a natural hypergamous instinct. Example - the male doctor will marry the nurse, but rarely the other way around.

Alot of women have forsaken marriage/family in their youth to pursue careers/degrees only to get left in the cold ages 30-35 when tyring to find a husband who has more status relative to theirs.

That's not a reference. That's just you stating your opinion as fact again.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

In case anyone is actually interested, a more modern theory concerning fertility decline is the kin influence hypothesis, something that is actually being supported by an accumulating body of empirical evidence.

Yeah ...that 4 page report sure nailed it down...... Your anti-mikey_the_redneck stance is showing.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah ...that 4 page report sure nailed it down...... Your anti-mikey_the_redneck stance is showing.

Yeah, what the hell is the London School of Economics anyways? Some kind of community college? Give me a good ol' fashioned, baseless, polarizing blog, completely lacking in scientific research or peer reviews.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's not a reference. That's just you stating your opinion as fact again.

Sure, but some things (like hypergamy) are observable in reality. How come rockstars and celebrities get laid like ........well rock stars?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

In case anyone is actually interested, a more modern theory concerning fertility decline is the kin influence hypothesis, something that is actually being supported by an accumulating body of empirical evidence.

After a quick look at that, I believe it is probably part of the case, though I'm not sure it's the whole story. And of course, there are the underlying reasons why we do live in smaller kin groups which could also be looked at as part of the story.

But thanks for sharing actual information, good post.

[bcsoda]

Originally Posted by photon

Just because it's not a book or imagination doesn't mean it isn't a fantasy. A couple might enjoy porn of certain situations or scenarios that they don't actually do in real life.. that's what makes it a fantasy.

It's like watching an action movie or a romantic movie or any other movie that creates a fantasy situation for enjoyment. Even though the guy getting shot in an action movie is as real as I will probably ever experience I don't think it demeans human life, and even though the romantic movie just setup a romantic situation that is 100x more romantic than I could ever contrive to be I don't think that necessarily sets up an unrealistic expectation in my relationship (though I think that that is a definite possibility just like abuse of porn could setup unrealistic expectations).

I don't think you're really comparing the same things here. Porn is people committing real explicit sexual acts, not pretending to do so. Movies depict something that isn't actually a man getting shot. If you saw a person actually getting shot on tv that takes away the fantasy part of it and makes it real life.

(the rest of your post I appreciated and enjoyed though, just wanted to point that out so I don't just seem argumentative)

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah ...that 4 page report sure nailed it down...... Your anti-mikey_the_redneck stance is showing.

Of course I have an anti-mikey_the_redneck stance. You constantly post things that are untrue or have no actual scientific, evidence-based backing. In this instance, though, I was just asking for some sort of reference material to what you claimed to be true. Why shouldn't I ask for it?

Sure, what you said about feminism may sound as if it has a kernel of truth or two in it, but without any sort of scientific evidence showing that it actually does, why should anyone believe it?

That 4-page report is a mere summary of the many different studies done on the subject. You can, if you want, take it upon yourself to read the studies referenced in it. I don't care, I just put it out there for those interested.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, what the hell is the London School of Economics anyways? Some kind of community college? Give me a good ol' fashioned, baseless, polarizing blog, completely lacking in scientific research or peer reviews.

Opening sentence in the report "Declining fertility is still a puzzle" ..and then they go on to give a brief "kin influence" theory on it.

[Flash Walken]

We're going down the rabbit hole again.

There's great discussion going on in this thread, let's not muddy the waters here by getting sidetracked.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Sure, but some things (like hypergamy) are observable in reality. How come rockstars and celebrities get laid like ........well rock stars?

Sure, if you want to completely believe that social constructs have nothing to do with it. There is obviously a biological component to it, but it's also exacerbated by patriarchy.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Daradon

After a quick look at that, I believe it is probably part of the case, though I'm not sure it's the whole story. And of course, there are the underlying reasons why we do live in smaller kin groups which could also be looked at as part of the story.

But thanks for sharing actual information, good post.

It's definitely not the whole story. Nothing about this type of subject matter can ever be easily contributed to one sole cause. Like the article says, though, changes in relationships between kin could provide a partial explanation.

One thing mikey_the_redneck is likely right about, though, is the change in sexual practices in developed countries also being a likely contributor to lower fertility rates in those countries. That's mentioned in the report, too, though, as another focus of study.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

It's definitely not the whole story. Nothing about this type of subject matter can ever be easily contributed to one sole cause. Like the article says, though, changes in relationships between kin could provide a partial explanation.

One thing mikey_the_redneck is likely right about, though, is the change in sexual practices in developed countries also being a likely contributor to lower fertility rates in those countries. That's mentioned in the report, too, though, as another focus of study.

Which was kind of my point. He's not entirely wrong, but he's not considering the bigger picture. Reproductive practices and the modern family can't be entirely attributed to sexual liberation and feminism.

Back to hypergamy for a second. My girlfriend is older than me by about 2.5 years. In my opinion, she's the more attractive one of the relationship, and she started dating me while I was unemployed, broke, and going to school, without any prospect of a job on the horizon, even though she has a career. Things have changed now, and obviously this is purely anecdotal, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Yeah ...that 4 page report sure nailed it down...... Your anti-mikey_the_redneck stance is showing.

pretty arrogant to think there's an anti-insert-your-name stance. I think everyone here is relatively neutral.

What if I accused people of a loving-girly stance

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Which was kind of my point. He's not entirely wrong, but he's not considering the bigger picture. Reproductive practices and the modern family can't be entirely attributed to sexual liberation and feminism.

Back to hypergamy for a second. My girlfriend is older than me by about 2.5 years. In my opinion, she's the more attractive one of the relationship, and she started dating me while I was unemployed, broke, and going to school, without any prospect of a job on the horizon, even though she has a career. Things have changed now, and obviously this is purely anecdotal, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

To clarify, I did not claim that feminism is wholly responsible for the current predicament, but it is a major source imo.

I believe your personal situation is an exception to the rule.

I want to add something here. Male economic success is the dominant marker for status in our contemporary culture, or atleast it has been. Now that women are virtually economic equals with males, they now choose men based on factors other than earnings. This has produced the modern day d-bag/bad boy phenomenon. Women choose men based purely on physical/masculine personality trait attractiveness. These men are not the most responsible in many cases......and will not take the responsibility to marry a woman or take care of her if he knocks her up. This is why single-motherhood in urban black communities is so rampant.

Anyways I'm not saying you're a d-bag or bad boy ............or are you?
I'm just saying maybe your girlfriend picked you because you're pretty and/or a badass mofo.

In regards to a previous post, the reason some career women at ages 30-35+ become frustrated, is because they think they deserve a man of status equal to or greater than them (career wise). The high status men in these dating pools however, are dating young fertile women.

[Tinordi]

Always an interesting day when mikey emerges from his cryostasis.