Nage Waza, this is not a troll. I am interested on what you see as a resolution/end to the issues.
I think I have been pretty consistent with my views on this.
Hamas or Hezbolla in no way shape or form should exist (nor should other similar orgs). The violent influence of nations like Iran must end. The middle east must not view western Israel as a threat to their ideology or principles, the system of oppression clearly is not working for mid east nations. The children of the middle east must be educated on the principles of freedom and respect of minority rights - they have so much reeducating to do in some regions I wonder if the hate can ever go away.
I believe strongly that Israel is in the spotlight since it is a western nation and also because of the Jewish connection. If you think about it, Israel retaliates to thousands of fired rockets and people post negative things about Israel. Meanwhile in Syria 40,000 plus people have died, Syrian vs Syrian. There is enough violence in the region that usually does not involve Israel yet there is a lineup to condemn Israel. Oppression of everything is normal living standards (sexuality, women, race, religion etc) except in Israel, yet people argue that Israel should not exist, even though it is a beacon of human rights in the region.
What many don't seem to care about is that no matter how you spin the creation of Israel, they still created a nation that respects all religions and where Muslims may have a better standard of living than anywhere else in the region. What must go away is the misconception that somehow Israel systematically removed all Arabs from Israel and created a nation with their blood.
On paper building so called settlements is a bad idea, yet until Israel has a legit negotiating partner they will want to keep building to up the pressure. Either way, rockets are not the same as construction zones no matter the spin. The rockets are only firing because someone is telling their cronies to launch them, not because it is in the people's best interest.
Gaza needs an uprising, not against Israel but against those that are putting them in harms way by attacking Israel. This has happened before, but Hamas had to much power.
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No kidding. First thing that came to mind when I saw that sign is that the rows "Number of children used as shields for (para)military operations" and "Number of children used on suicide missions" were missing.
I'd also be curious as to how they count their "ignored UN resolution". The UN is biased beyond belief, but the Palestinians have also been called out many times by the UN for their tactics, yet they continue to target civilian areas, use child soldiers, use human shields, etc..
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At the end of the day, I'm not sure if it really matters who's more at fault....whether it's 70/30 or 50/50.....the conflict is still there. Both sides are never going to back down, and enough people from both sides seem to think they are innocent (just like there are myopic Arab-supporters, good luck getting a guy like Nage to even admit a shred of Israeli responsibility) to the point where it's pointless to debate the percentages.
Of course you don't think it matters who is at fault, because even you know Israel was not at fault. If you can't blame Israel, then who cares who is at fault, right? Somehow you claim I can't admit a shred of Israeli responsibility, but I usually only post when I see the brutal anti Israel posts. Israel has been the target of terrorism, as have all the other mid east nations. Do you only condemn Israel when they defend themselves?
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Originally Posted by Table 5
I know it's probably not the most popular solution, but I still think the best way for the rest of the world to deal with this issue is to back off and let them figure it out on their own. No more support (financial, moral, political, or military) for either side. If it means war and bloodshed, so be it. If Israel needs to bring out the big guns, so be it. If Palestine needs to do the same, so be it. Let them have their battle royale. But I'm tired of the rest of the world getting caught up in a squabble between these two parasites, and then us having to pay the bills.
No more support huh? Which anti Israel propaganda did you take that from? Why not support Israel, pretty much a role model for rights in the region. But no, let's not support them. Let's support the guys who make life miserable for their own people, Hamas.
And now you call these guys parasites...and what bills did you pay for Israel?
Useful idiots make the situation worse by misinforming people.
So if I were to ask some of you what you thought a viable long term solution was to stability and peace in the region, what would your answer be?
Keep in mind that arguing about who has the rights to the land, who was there first, how Israel was created, etc is pretty moot at this point as Israel is not going anywhere. The two-state solution always gets thrown around but will never be a reality as long as a perceived terrorist organization is running the show in Gaza.
Of course you don't think it matters who is at fault, because even you know Israel was not at fault. If you can't blame Israel, then who cares who is at fault, right? Somehow you claim I can't admit a shred of Israeli responsibility, but I usually only post when I see the brutal anti Israel posts. Israel has been the target of terrorism, as have all the other mid east nations. Do you only condemn Israel when they defend themselves?
Where exactly did I condemn only Israel? I said let them have at each other. How is that taking sides to you? You have this wonderful ability to filter out all logic and discussion, and only hear what you want to hear. Did you not notice how I was treating both sides in exactly the same way?
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No more support huh? Which anti Israel propaganda did you take that from? Why not support Israel, pretty much a role model for rights in the region.
Because this so called "support" leads to war where citizens of my country pay the bills. Because this so called "support" leads to wars where our citizens die. Not supporting Israel does not mean one supports Palestine. I support neither….but I've said that 50 times to you and you can't seem to grasp that.
You're a Jewish guy, I can see why you have a vested interest. Myself, I'm not Jewish or Arab, and honestly don't give a crap about either side and only see negative outcomes. I care about American and Canadian citizens and dollars getting caught up in that circus.
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And now you call these guys parasites...and what bills did you pay for Israel?
There are these things called taxes. Tax funds tend to get allocated to certain causes in lieu of others. Since the 1970s, America has sent over 2 Trillion (with a T!) dollars to Israel. I'm sure we've sent just as much to Palestine, Egypt, Syria etc.
I've paid into an American tax system for for almost a decade, and about to do so for Canada. I want my efffin money to go towards health care, infrastructure, education in my country, not to a bunch of whiny babies halfway around the world.
If you want to support Israel by sending your dollars, go nuts. Me, I want out. It's a terrible ROI.
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So if I were to ask some of you what you thought a viable long term solution was to stability and peace in the region, what would your answer be?
Well, in Israel's case I think it's fairly simple: stop building settlements. However, there are so many powerful conservative and religious fanatics there that this is unlikely anytime soon.
In the case of the Palestinians, unfortunately, there is no solution. The reason I say this is because the Palestinians have zero control and zero power in terms of their own destiny. The only reason they are in conflict with Israel is because Iran, Syria, Saudi, Jordan and Egypt want them to be. These nations fund, arm and support terrorist organization like Hamas and Hezbollah and do everything they can to keep them relevant and in control. I think alot of people assume the reason that these nations want to destroy Israel is because of religion or some ancient claim to a tiny sliver of desert, but that's simply not true, or at best only partially true. Religion and history are the excuses they use to pull the masses on side and to sell their propoganda. The real reason they oppose Israel is democracy. Israeli Arabs and Palestinians live in the only truly democratic nation in the area. The dictators that rule the surrounding nations don't want the 'seed' of democracy to spread and therefore lose their grip on power. There was hope that the 'Arab Spring' would be part of a democratic uprising but it's become more a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss..."
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Originally Posted by Table 5
Where exactly did I condemn only Israel? I said let them have at each other.
That's a common sentiment and one I can empathize with. The last time the world "let them have at each other" Israel quickly and effectively defeated several invading armies and in the process picked up lands like Gaza, the West Bank and the Sinai Penisula (subsequently returned to Egypt). At the time it was Israel (armed and funded by the US) versus Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon (armed and funded by Russia and China). However, that wasn't the end of it. The world was outraged that Israel would dare to capture land in war and we are still dealing with the results.
If Israel was left to it's own devices and left with no support from the West it would be quickly wiped off the face of the Earth. That's what these extremists and dictators want. That may seem like a solution to some but certaintly not to me. I believe, unlike Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, etc. that Israel has a 'right to exist' as a nation. Letting them "have at each other" is, in fact, taking sides.
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I disagree. The purpose of writing this article was, in a totally hypocritical way, to influence the upcomming election. The author is an extreme left-wing Israeli. He wants those he considers to be right wing to do poor in the election.
Well, that's weird, because in March he wrote an article about how Netanyahu "is our man" (that's a quote, from him). Here's a quote from this 'extreme left-wing Israeli' in that article:
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We need Netanyahu.
Not because a Netanyahu government will more effectively rebuild the Israeli left. Not because I believe that for it to get better it has to get a lot worse, though both may be true. But because there is no one, absolutely no one in the Israeli political arena who has the capability of delivering a peace deal that the Israeli mainstream (meaning both the peace skeptics like Kadima voters and the religious and right of center people who together compose the vast majority of Israeli society) would support.
You can read more of this 'extreme left-wing Israeli' here:
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For more than five years Baskin has been involved in efforts to obtain Shalit's release, despite never being asked to do so by the Israeli government and frequently getting the cold shoulder from the military establishment and the Prime Minister's Office.
Three days after Shalit's abduction Baskin received a phone call from a teacher at the Islamic University of Gaza with close ties to Hamas he met at an academic conference in Cairo a few months earlier. Israel had responded to the abduction with a major military operation in Gaza. The academic put Baskin in touch with Hamed, a spokesman for the Hamas government, with the idea of opening a communication channel with Jerusalem.
...
Meidan agreed to meet with Baskin. "[He] was cautious at first, and didn't know whether I was serious," Baskin said. Meidan realized the value of the alternate avenue of communication after receiving, and obtaining confirmation of authenticity from the Shin Bet security service, a few messages from Hamed through Baskin.
In the July 14 document, Hamas agreed to accept the release of fewer of the more dangerous prisoners, ones directly responsibly for killing Israelis in terror attacks. After studying the offer, Meidan realized it was a genuine breakthrough. He asked Egyptian officials to mediate between Israel and Hamas, using the letter as a basis for the negotiations.
"Netanyahu created the big change when he decided to move ahead with the deal and bring Shalit home," Baskin said yesterday. "Meidan showed determination and willingness to think outside the box. Hamed displayed courage and commitment, based in part on his empathy for the suffering of the Shalit family and of Gilad," Baskin said.
For a country with such a small geographical footprint, Israel packs a mighty military punch (out of necessity).
Yep, Mossad puts most intelligence agencies to shame and it's not a surprise that many western nations train with the IDF to learn from them (including the US)
Israel says "all options are on the table" for quelling rocket attacks from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip after three Israelis died in a rocket attack in the south and a missile fired from the Palestinian coastal territory threatened the Israeli commercial capital Tel Aviv.
Israeli forces are now amassing. Troops are moving toward the Gaza Strip and at least a dozen trucks carrying tanks and armoured vehicles were seen late Thursday moving toward the border area, while buses ferried soldiers.
Gaza fired rockets being intercepted by Israel's "Iron Dome" system
edit: Story of the video according to reddit
"Sirens interrupted a wedding in the city of Beersheba (about 25 miles from Gaza) and a photographer caught a barrage of rockets on video. You can also see about a dozen Iron Dome interceptions."
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So if I were to ask some of you what you thought a viable long term solution was to stability and peace in the region, what would your answer be?
Personally, I think they need to be brought closer and not pushed away. If you fight the poverty, then Hamas and the likes won't be able to control the population. I think it's less about "who was there first", than it is about a general competetion for wealth and resources. Many Palestinians are immigrants or decendents of immigrants too. When people of the Jewish diaspora were migrating to Israel between 1880 and 1948, Palestinians from Jordan and Egyptians were also migrating there.
The problem is, they have little to no industry and would never be able to form a country on their own. It's probably too late to hope for a "2-nations under one country" system and any independent Palestinian state will likely have to be a welfare state for a long time. Israel shouldn't have to bear that cost alone though. The Palestinians have to take the first step though and lay down their weapons for an extended period of time in order to build some trust. Unfortunately, that won't happen until Hamas and their backers are removed from the picture. As long as they are around, Palestinians will be ruled by fear.
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In all honesty that region is so messed up. Israel is the only glimmering light as far as human rights go (for its own people at least).
This is bs. Other Middle Eastern countries, such as Lebanon do just fine with "human rights". Half the population in Lebanon is Christian and they get treated just as good if not better by the government.
This is bs. Other Middle Eastern countries, such as Lebanon do just fine with "human rights". Half the population in Lebanon is Christian and they get treated just as good if not better by the government.
So Lebanon has no Human Rights issues, no charges or abuse against the military or other authority powers?
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
So what's your point? America doesn't exactly have the best human rights record either with their soldiers or military. Guantanamo Bay ring a bell?
You brought up Lebanon not me, so let's focus on that.
Your post said that:
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such as Lebanon do just fine with "human rights". Half the population in Lebanon is Christian and they get treated just as good if not better by the government.
Human Rights, while most likely better in Lebanon than other places in the region are far from "fine".
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
