2012-2013 Toronto Blue Jays Off Season Thread

[fundmark19]

Buerhle did perfect game the Rays so he is kinda a big deal. But then again everyone seems to no hit and PG the Rays

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

The point of the media attention is to promote the deal, you do this by pushing the bigger names in a deal. Johnson may be the golden boy in the deal, but Buerhle and Reyes are the names the casual fans know.

I personally don't care who starts opening night. But I am excited by the fact that our top 4 should be Buerhle, Escobar, Johnson and Morrow.

I also really like picking up Reyes, he is going to give the Jays a legit stolen base threat while hitting for a decent average. Buck should also provide more competition behind the plate to push JP.

Of course it is. But mark buerhle is the least 'big name' player in this trade on the Jays side. If the trade was 5 years ago I'd agree with his assessment.

[jschick88]

Josh Johnson's Agent: New Jays Could be Flipped

“I feel like there has to be another piece to this trade. I’ve got to imagine that the players that Alex acquired have to be in play– it’s a lot of money he took on in salary in one shot. And there are so many teams that are interested in Josh Johnson that if the Yankees or Texas or some of these teams looking for a frontline starter wanted to give up a tonne, it would seem like it would be against the way that Alex normally does business to not listen and make a trade if he could acquire a bunch of top prospects for one of the players in this deal.”

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/1...ld-be-flipped/

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Huh?

AA is going to acquire a SP the team desperately needs, but then listen to offers to flip him for prospects?

I know he's just speculating, but that doesn't make any sense at all.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Tim BrownVerified
‏@TBrownYahoo

MLB has not yet received official documentation from Tor-Mia trade. Understand cash to Tor could be at least double the $4m reported.

[dustyanddaflames]

Originally Posted by jschick88

Josh Johnson's Agent: New Jays Could be Flipped

“I feel like there has to be another piece to this trade. I’ve got to imagine that the players that Alex acquired have to be in play– it’s a lot of money he took on in salary in one shot. And there are so many teams that are interested in Josh Johnson that if the Yankees or Texas or some of these teams looking for a frontline starter wanted to give up a tonne, it would seem like it would be against the way that Alex normally does business to not listen and make a trade if he could acquire a bunch of top prospects for one of the players in this deal.”

http://blogs.thescore.com/djf/2012/1...ld-be-flipped/

Anyone else reading this as, "My client was disappointed to hear about the deal. Moving Toronto does not suit Josh's lifestyle nor desires, and if say, the Yankees or Texas were interested in acquiring Josh, he'd be more than happy to go to said clubs." ????

EDIT - there is more to the quotes above, I retract my statement somewhat...

“These days, the first thing that happens is the financial guy calls to tell him the differences between the tax rates in Florida and Toronto,” Sosnick explained, “but in real life, I think he’s excited to get out of Florida, and to get a fresh start.”
Not only that, “this is Alex going all-in, and I think this is going to be his legacy, one way or the other,” he says of the deal. And right now, there’s optimism. ”I think a lot of people in that trade really believe that Toronto has a chance to win the American League this year now,” he explains. While on the other hand, “Miami is just a destroyed franchise. I think guys are just getting out as quick as they can.”
Better even, perhaps, Sosnick flatly dismisses the notion that taxes are an issue for his client, and says he’s certainly open to signing an extension, “if there’s a fair sharing of the risk,” and “as long as the player is happy.”

[CaramonLS]

I don't think Johnson will be flipped. Although you may be able to get some decent assets for him, I think that the Jays will absolutely keep him around until at least the trade deadline.

If the Jays are out, you can move him for some very valuable pieces to one of the contenders.

[MoneyGuy]

I don't know anything about baseball personnel, but with the huge trade the Blue Jays made yesterday, what would be the equivalent if the Flames had made a trade of similar significance? It appears that the Jays traded future to make a run now (giving up four young players or prospects for five vets, I think)? I have no idea. Maybe someone who knows baseball would tell me. Maybe something like Baertschi + + + (name four of the best prospects) for five proven, established guys???

[Caged Great]

It was basically like trading

Stempniak (escobar)
Backlund (Alvarez)
Horak (Hechavarria)
Arnold (Marisnick)
Reinhart (Nicolino)
Jackman (Mathis)
Bouma (Descalfiani)

For Iginla (reyes), Tanguay (Johnson), Bouwmeester (Buerlhe SP), Glencross (Bonifacio) and Stajan (Buck)

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Of course it is. But mark buerhle is the least 'big name' player in this trade on the Jays side. If the trade was 5 years ago I'd agree with his assessment.

For casual fans the bigger name 5 years ago will be the one they are more likely to know though. I had no idea who Johnson was prior to this deal. I only looked him up because of the trade and I think it's safe to say I am far from the only one.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by dustyanddaflames

To be fair - I think the Marlins did get some good value in the deal, but I wouldn't put it as equal value for what they were sending the other way...

Nicolino was probably the most polished arm in Lansing. Hechavarria will be their shortstop of the future (though his projections really vary based off who is speaking). Henderson Alvarez could be a very nice #3 starter if he develops an outpitch (electric arm, and only 22 yrs old). Jake Marisnick has potential to be an everyday CF, but a little reading does show he comes with some flaws in the swing. Plus you toss in Escobar to play ss until Hech is ready to take over.

Like I said, I would never say Mia won the deal, or came close to getting replacement value back - but I do like the players they got in return. Just surprised that was all they were asking for...

The Jays did give up some very good prospects. Baseball America and MLB had Marisnick at 37 and 35 positions, respectively, in their top 100 prospects. Baseball america had him one spot ahead of Gose. Marisnick was touted to be a potential 5 tool OF. Scouts were saying the Jays could have one of the top outfielders with Marisnick and Gose in a few years. MLB had Nicolino at 86 spot (in the top 100). You have to give up some future to get some sure thing now.

I am worried about the huge payroll the Jay will be undertaking ($120-$150 mil) and not making it. I guess you have to pay (some) if you want to play more (into the post season). Reyes's huge contract from 10 million to 16 million (2014) and 22 milllon (2015-2017) would be scary tough if the Jays gambled and not win big. Johnson will be UFA after 2013 and may command beyond the 100 million salary. I do have faith in AA and his shrewd business dealings coupled with his thorough knowledge of prospects hopefully this will translate the Jays into a contender.

[Cowboy89]

So is the official Florida/Miami Marlins end of season firesale count up to 3 now? Despite winning the World Series in '97 and '03 it has to be frustrating to be a fan of that team. Also of note, what's the official Jeffrey Loria induced firesale count at now?

[dammage79]

isnt that the same ###### who fubard the Expos?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Yup, Jeffrey Loria is a piece of crap...here's the proof

Here are some random Jeff Loria and Marlins facts which, taken together, aren’t terribly random:

• After purchasing the Montreal Expos in the 1990s, he immediately claimed that, without a new stadium, the team that was much beloved and supported by its fans and once was near the top of the National League in annual attendance could not compete without a new stadium. When public officials balked, he cut payroll and denigrated the City of Montreal as a baseball market.
• In 2000, unsatisfied with rights fees offered by English-speaking TV and radio broadcasters in Montreal, Loria allowed the Expos to play with no television or English radio broadcasts, preventing thousands of Expos fans from actually seeing or hearing Expos games.
• In selling the Expos, he received a sweetheart deal and no-interest loans from Major League Baseball which allowed him to buy the Marlins put the Expos into league receivership. When he left Montreal, he moved the Expos’ entire front office staff, on-field staff, office equipment and computer equipment to Florida, leaving new Expos general manager Omar Minaya with virtually no resources with which to field a competitive team.
• The atrophied remains of the Expos then served as an easy target for contraction threats by Major League Baseball designed to create leverage in labor negotiations with the MLBPA and had the effect of alienating all but the most die-hard Montreal baseball fans. As a result of both Loria’s acts as Expos manager and his complicity in the league’s use of the Expos as an example and bargaining chip, Montreal was utterly destroyed as a viable baseball market.
• Loria took over the Marlins in 2002. Between 2002 and 2010, the Marlins got around $300 million in revenue sharing and banked at least $154 million of it in pure profit.
• Two years ago, the Marlins were forced into an agreement with Major League Baseball and the player’s union to stop violating Article XXIV(B)(5)(a) of the Basic Agreement which requires revenue sharing money to be used to improve your team instead of lining ownership’s pockets.
• In addition to team profits and the substantial appreciation of the franchise since he purchased it, Jeffrey Loria pays himself around $10 million a year in “administration fees.” As a result of last night’s trade, he is now paid nearly twice the salary of the Marlins’ highest-paid player.
• The ballpark which the Marlins convinced Miami to build them was paid for by the public against its will, was shady all around, led to public outrage which cost politicians their jobs and wound up costing far more, drawing far fewer fans than the team promised taxpayers it would and has led to virtually zero development of the surrounding area, contrary to the promises of Loria and his friends.
• A year ago Friday, David Samson talked big about the Marlins “rising payroll, higher revenues” and the team’s new way of doing things, a plan that lasted until roughly July.
• David Samson last March to a group of Miami business leaders: “I don’t have to hold back now that the stadium is built – not that I ever have …” He called people who run for office “not the cream of the intellectual crop,” adding about the entire population, “That’s not to say we’re not the smartest people in Miami. My guess is, if you’re in this room, we’re immediately in the top 1%.”

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...a-kelptocracy/

[TitovFTW]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

For casual fans the bigger name 5 years ago will be the one they are more likely to know though. I had no idea who Johnson was prior to this deal. I only looked him up because of the trade and I think it's safe to say I am far from the only one.

Almost any casual baseball fan in the States know who Johnson is. He is a hell of a pitcher, and the best player in this trade IMO. Although to be fair, I could care less how reputable these players names are

[you got PHANUEFED]

Next trade will be flipping J.J and JPA to TEX for Kinsler and Holland.

[Berger]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It was basically like trading

Stempniak (escobar)
Backlund (Alvarez)
Horak (Hechavarria)
Arnold (Marisnick)
Reinhart (Nicolino)
Jackman (Mathis)
Bouma (Descalfiani)

For Iginla (reyes), Tanguay (Johnson), Bouwmeester (Buerlhe SP), Glencross (Bonifacio) and Stajan (Buck)

This hits the nail right on the head.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Berger

This hits the nail right on the head.

Seems to be overrating the guys the Jays get and underrating the guys they gave up but as I said earlier tough to make a hockey comparison especially using the Flames.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by moon

Seems to be overrating the guys the Jays get and underrating the guys they gave up but as I said earlier tough to make a hockey comparison especially using the Flames.

I know what you mean, it was just as close as I could find. I agree with you as well that I'm over rating the return and underrating the stuff headed to miami, but it's very difficult to make a direct comparison.

It'd probably be about 10% worse and 10% better for the two sides.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I know what you mean, it was just as close as I could find. I agree with you as well that I'm over rating the return and underrating the stuff headed to miami, but it's very difficult to make a direct comparison.

It'd probably be about 10% worse and 10% better for the two sides.

Yep it is tough.

I think you got the gist of the type of deal it is, prospects as particularly tough as most of the Florida guys have much better upside than the NHL guys listed but also are a big time risk to bust out based on the nature of the game. It is tough to compare baseball and hockey prospects because of the development each take.