Wear a poppy - Page 5 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Alberta_Beef · 11-05-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Can you please explain what difference the military stood for before WW2 compared to now?

Cause what I see is a nation backing up one one of our founding nations that had a history of invading every country on this planet but 22.

Please give us another history lesson on the valour of the Boer War versus the lack of valour in Afghanistan.

I really need your help here cause I dont see how you can square this logic circle of,"I only honour the worthwhile sacrifice but not the other".

If you had a stance that all war is bad and I refuse to be a part of it I could least get what is driving your opinion, but to me and it appears most of the other posters, it just doesn't make sense.

As a grandson of a Vimy Ridge vet and a great grandson of an RSM vet from the Boer War I would like to think I am coming from an educated stance too.

It is estimated over 12,000 civilians have died during the attacks on Afghanistan, this is to what avenge the deaths of 3000 people on 9/11? I'm sorry but that is not acceptable to me.

These wars now are not about our freedom or defending our country. They are about things like oil and instilling western values on other societies.

Our military now is no more than a terrorist group that is widely accepted because they fight for western values.

But hey if you are cool with soldiers murdering thousands of innocent people that's your choice. Me I choose not to support terrorism.

Reaper · 11-05-2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I appreciate everything the older Vets did to preserve our freedom, but I never wear a poppy because I do not feel the same about the younger Vets as I don't feel any of the wars fought after WW2 were for the right reasons (although that is more politicians fault than the soldiers).

Support is for the veterans, not the wars. Remember that soldiers do not choose the conflicts and that they serve regardless of the station. The poppy is not about being pro war or anti war. If it helps you reconcile your beliefs then consider the poppy for Canada's peacekeeping veterans.

Reaper · 11-05-2012, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Our military now is no more than a terrorist group that is widely accepted because they fight for western values.

But hey if you are cool with soldiers murdering thousands of innocent people that's your choice. Me I choose not to support terrorism.

These statements make my blood boil. In spite of your "enlightenment" you know nothing about the Canadian Armed Forces and their role in Afganistan.

Alberta_Beef · 11-05-2012, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper

These statements make my blood boil. In spite of your "enlightenment" you know nothing about the Canadian Armed Forces and their role in Afganistan.

And it makes my blood boil that people are brainwashed into thinking killing innocent civilians in the name of war is acceptable.

Sucks don't it?

I tried not to put my viewpoints out there because I know how people react. But people wouldn't let me go with just saying I didn't wear a poppy because I am against the military. Instead they thought it best to try and force their views on me, talk down to me and act like they are better than I am because of a fake flower on their lapel, so I reacted and gave my opinions on the military.

Reaper · 11-05-2012, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

And it makes my blood boil that people are brainwashed into thinking killing innocent civilians in the name of war is acceptable.

Where did I say that killing innocent civilians was acceptable? You make it sound like the Canadian Armed Forces' primary objective is to kill innocent civilians! What about my buddy who was hit by body parts when an IED went off while he was on patrol near a school that was targetted for educating girls? Is he a terrorist?

HPLovecraft · 11-05-2012, 07:46 AM

Resolute 14 · 11-05-2012, 07:47 AM

No, Alberta_Beef, you don't get to play the victim card. Despite your claims, your posts are very much looking down upon modern soldiers, trivializing their deaths. So yeah, expect people are going to react to that, and expect that most won't side with you.

And that is fine. You've every right to think the way you do and to express it. But just as you criticize those who do support our troops, you'll have to accept that criticism will be returned your way.

speede5 · 11-05-2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

But hey if you are cool with soldiers murdering thousands of innocent people that's your choice. Me I choose not to support terrorism.

Wow, you really have no f#(*#g clue do you?

I have friends in afgan, and our soldiers are not out murdering innocent people.

Just cause some idiot politicians put our soldiers in the wrong places is no reason whatsoever to dishonor them. A simple act one day a year which has nothing to do with the policies or political decisions made is all that remmeberance is.

You guys who get all in a bunch and have to be higher than thou about why your not wearing a poppy really need to pull your heads out of your ass.

I'm trying to be polite, but you've got under my skin now.

Alberta_Beef · 11-05-2012, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper

Where did I say that killing innocent civilians was acceptable? You make it sound like the Canadian Armed Forces' primary objective is to kill innocent civilians! What about my buddy who was hit by body parts when an IED went off while he was on patrol near a school that was targetted for educating girls? Is he a terrorist?

What part of the military is a terrorist organization do you not understand?

The point of a military organization is to instill fear, it's why they carry weapons. No matter how you try and defend it their job it to instill fear, or terror if you will.

SeeBass · 11-05-2012, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

It is estimated over 12,000 civilians have died during the attacks on Afghanistan, this is to what avenge the deaths of 3000 people on 9/11? I'm sorry but that is not acceptable to me.

These wars now are not about our freedom or defending our country. They are about things like oil and instilling western values on other societies.

Our military now is no more than a terrorist group that is widely accepted because they fight for western values.

But hey if you are cool with soldiers murdering thousands of innocent people that's your choice. Me I choose not to support terrorism.

Well at least we have a measuring stick that you are using.

So again how was WW1 and the Boer War a threat to Canada's freedom again? How many European/African civilians died from the fighting compared to Canadian civilians? Was the ratio more acceptable to you?

Again your formula for acceptance of one and not the other is truly flawed.

As I said if you made an anti war stance to all war then that is an opinion that makes sense. But this checklist of what is a correct war and what is not just doesn't.

It's like you are reading the bible and taking the parts you like and ignoring the rest to fit your POV

bigtmac19 · 11-05-2012, 07:55 AM

Lest we Forget.

In memory of my father, captured in Dieppe at age 19 and who spent 3 years as he called it "a guest of the Germans", who passed away August 28, 2011.

I was in Dieppe this summer for the 70th anniversary. Also toured through France and Holland, visited many war cemeteries, Vimy Ridge, Njimegen Bridge, Hochwald Forest, Westerbork Camp, many museums. It was a learning experience and meant everything to my two boys who loved and respected their Grandfather so much. Seeing those places, hearing the stories of those battles brought everything to life for them. You don't realize the depth of respect and admiration that the people of Europe have for their "Liberators" until you have experienced it. We shed a lot of tears in more than a few places in Holland, as everywhere we went we were greeted with so much love and respect.

I know that to the people of Europe, the sacrifices of those veterans will never be forgotten.

Reaper · 11-05-2012, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

What part of the military is a terrorist organization do you not understand?

Oh, I understood your statement. I just happen to think that it is uninformed and idiotic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

The point of a military organization is to instill fear, it's why they carry weapons.

No, they carry weapons because it is hard to reason with the business end of a rifle. As a soldier your job is protect those you serve and serve with. Part of that is by putting down enemy combatants that are TRYING TO KILL YOU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No matter how you try and defend it their job iS to instill fear, or terror if you will.

Go tell a veteran that they were terrorists. I quintuple dirty dog dare you. Post video of your insufferable, sheltered, idiotic ass being handed to you by someone who defended the rights of you and others.

MrMastodonFarm · 11-05-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fotze

My kid goes to a public school, but he does not get remembrance day off. He gets the following Friday off instead?

That seems kind of fataed. Suprised a reporter hasn't whipped up some outrage over the publiuc school disrespecting veterans.

The 11th is a Sunday.

cDnStealth · 11-05-2012, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

What part of the military is a terrorist organization do you not understand?

The point of a military organization is to instill fear, it's why they carry weapons. No matter how you try and defend it their job it to instill fear, or terror if you will.

At what conflict do you draw the line for your support? You apparently support the Boer War which was the very definition of an imperialistic war. You seem extremely hung up on the 12,000+ civilian deaths in the 10+ year war in the Middle East yet in the 2 year 7 month conflict in Africa there were an estimated 27,000 Boer civilian casualties and an unknown number of black civilian casualties of which over 100,000 were interned in concentration camps. WWII had an estimated 30,000,000 - 50,000,000 civilian casualties over a 5 year period. So why exactly do you not wear a poppy?

CaptainCrunch · 11-05-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

Well, let's say Canada stays out of WWII. Does the US also stay out? (Assuming Pearl Harbor happened as a result of the US preparing to enter the war.) What about other medium strength powers like Australia, Brazil, etc?

Maybe the outcome of WWII would have been the same without Canada in it. But what would have happened if others had also followed Canada?

In any case, I wear my poppy to honour my grandfather. He did come home from WWII, but lives with the horrors he saw for the rest of his life.

If Canada hadn't entered the war.

The North American Convoys wouldn't have broken the German Naval blockade of the UK, Britain likely would have been invaded and taken or starved of food, fuel vital part weapons and ammunition died on the vine. Hitler would have probably delayed his invasion of Russia and built a true fortress Europe.

Without Canada there wouldn't have been southern pressure on the German's through Italy.

The UK would have probably been a puppet state of Berlin,

The Normandy Invasion wouldn't have happened as a trans Atlantic supply line would have been broken.

Key American armaments that flowed through Canada to Britain wouldn't have arrived and Britain would have been short of Aircraft and other key systems.

The English rule of law would have essentially vanished throughout Europe and most of Africa.

If the Japanese hadn't foolishly attacked Pearl Harbor and Canada hadn't participated in the convoy runs and later the military actions in Europe we would have been looking at a far more frightening version of a cold war featuring a convienience alliance between Germany Japan and the Soviets.

undercoverbrother · 11-05-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Bunnies

Its taking every fibre of my being to really restrain myself. But here goes...

Ignorance is being uninformed. When someone disagrees with your opinion they arent necessarily uninformed. Disagreement with a bunch of agenda driven bull#### political wars is someones opinion. The right of which your buddies supposedly gave their lives for.

The fact remains that Afghanistan has nothing to do with protecting Canadian society. This is a land that has a vast history of tribal conflict and resistance to foreign powers.

An army is created to protect our land; not project our ideals onto others that dont want it. WW2 was the last threat to Canada. Korea, Suez, Cyprus, Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc... are/were of no threat to Canada.

Being a veteran doesnt give you or anyone else a free pass in the morality dept.

Ok, I know this is a waste of time but here goes:

Mr Beef said:

Quote:

I appreciate everything the older Vets did to preserve our freedom, but I never wear a poppy because I do not feel the same about the younger Vets as I don't feel any of the wars fought after WW2 were for the right reasons (although that is more politicians fault than the soldiers).

If he believes that all our Military has done since WW2 is fight wars then he is, be definition ignorant: "lacking knowledge".

Let's talk about Military deaths. Should he forget about the deaths of soldiers during training exercises? What about those that duriung search and rescue, Sgt Janick Gilbert deserves to be remember, no?

Next:

Quote:

The right of which your buddies supposedly gave their lives for.

I don't believe you have the right to bring these men up. You have no idea who they are, or how they died. I only knew one of them for 90 mins, Capt Jim Deceste. I met him at the UN headquarters in Knin. He was excited to see Canadians, and sat and bought us lunch. He came up through the ranks. He died Sept 18, 1993.

He is a list of those that did not return:

Spoiler!

How about we also talk about the injuried, both physical and mental. I spent 7 months in Croatia and witnessed some bad things. Those things still bother me to this day.

Next:

Quote:

An army is created to protect our land; not project our ideals onto others that dont want it.

I am happy and proud our army does not sit at home. Our army is involved in helping eliminate things like this:

NSFW!

This is the results of the Medak Pocket Operation of the Croatian Army. We, 2 PPCLI help, reduce the number of deaths that occurred.

At the end of the day "fluffy bunnies" the world if full of 3 kinds of people:

Sheep
Sheepdogs
Wolves.

SeeBass · 11-05-2012, 10:09 AM

^that and I bet the germans would have had their rockets and nukes first

wookster · 11-05-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Bunnies

Its taking every fibre of my being to really restrain myself. But here goes...

Ignorance is being uninformed. When someone disagrees with your opinion they arent necessarily uninformed. Disagreement with a bunch of agenda driven bull#### political wars is someones opinion. The right of which your buddies supposedly gave their lives for.

The fact remains that Afghanistan has nothing to do with protecting Canadian society. This is a land that has a vast history of tribal conflict and resistance to foreign powers.

An army is created to protect our land; not project our ideals onto others that dont want it. WW2 was the last threat to Canada. Korea, Suez, Cyprus, Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc... are/were of no threat to Canada.

Being a veteran doesnt give you or anyone else a free pass in the morality dept.

And I will respectfully disagree with the majority of this post. This is my opinion but for arguments sake: You don't wear a poppy as a symbol of political agenda or to show support for our government in what they decide to do in world affairs. The poppy as I understand it is to show the sacrifices that the soldiers themselves made in service to their country. They go into harms way because they are told to, they may not agree with the reasons behind it, I'm sure some of the men and women who served in the places you mentioned didn't agree with why they were there. But they did go where they were told and did the job they were told to do, and some of them made the supreme sacrifice in trying to do that job. Thats what you honor, not any political motives/beliefs etc.

You may not agree with Canada being in Afganistan and that ok, you are definitely not alone, but I don't think that should have anything to do with wearing a poppy as there should be no politics involved in what that stands for.

allicat · 11-05-2012, 11:01 AM

I don't often post here, but this thread has got me all riled up. I can't really come up with a coherent repsonse to such, frankly, ridiculous and extremely insensitive posts by those lamenting (and rather proudly) their decision not to wear a poppy, and others have done a much better job than I could so I will only say this:

I have travelled in Europe, and was lucky enough to visit Vimy Ridge. I'm a historian (yeah yeah, I know...lame) and have read Pierre Burton's Vimy, along with countless other books, biographies and historiographies on the two world wars (I am by no means an expert but I do consider myself educated on the topic). Wearing a poppy is not about supporting a war, or supporting anything really. It's about honouring people who gave their lives doing their job. Young men (and women, let's not forget the ladies!) died doing their jobs. It's a job no one wants to do, and those who do I have the utmost respect for. I challenge anyone to really see (by visiting) or read (there are countless first hand accounts) about any 'war' experience and not be changed by it. How anyone can not respect the sacrifices of those men and women is beyond me.

RandyHolt · 11-05-2012, 11:37 AM

This thread struck a bit of a nerve with me as well, but the one good thing that it did was reminded me who this day is all about. It reminded me that some of the veterans, like my late grandfather, are going to be affected by what they saw and what they had to do until the day they die.

And for the first time in a couple years it reminded me to go donate more than just my spare change to the poppy fund to help anyone still struggling.