Here we go again folks... so get used to it.

[Rerun]

http://www.canada.com/Opposition+bal...512/story.html

Opposition balks at breadth of second major budget bill introduced in Parliament


BY MARK KENNEDY OCTOBER 18, 2012


OTTAWA - Opposition politicians accused the federal government Thursday of acting cynically by including a pension-reform package for MPs in a much broader bill stemming from the spring budget.

The bill, introduced in the House of Commons Thursday morning, amends federal statutes in a wide range of areas, such as: protection of waterways, remuneration of judges, customs rules at borders, aboriginal affairs, research and development tax credits, environmental assessments, and grain elevators.

But the changes drawing most initial attention focused on a significant reform to the pension plan for MPs, long dubbed a "gold-plated" scheme by critics. Under the reforms, politicians will be forced to deduct more money from their pay cheques for pension contributions and wait longer to receive the benefits.

Last spring, the government sparked outrage on the opposition benches when it introduced a 425-page budget bill that critics said contained policy changes not related to traditional budgetary matters.

The Conservative government refused to split the bill into separate legislation, and it used its majority in the Commons to pass it, over the objections of the opposition.

On Thursday, the political opposition immediately signalled it is also critical of the second omnibus bill, saying it is too long and contains too many separate policy changes.

Opposition MPs said the government should be introducing its measures in several bills, so that different parliamentary committees can hold effective hearings which properly review the changes.

Translation to the bolded part:

"Opposition MPs said the government should be introducing its measures in several bills, so that multiple parliamentary committees can hold numerous hearings in which opposition members can delay the changes as long as possible."




This is the reason why the Conservative government introduces these mega bills and this is the reason the opposition parties hate them.

I for one am happy that the CPC is pushing through these reforms. CPC supporters have been waiting a long time for them and I'm certainly not sorry that the Liberal party no longer controls parliament like they have for most of the last six decades. I understand that there are a lot of Liberal supporters on CP but thats the way it is right now. You'll have another kick at the can in 2115.

[NuclearPizzaMan]

Nothing says "Democracy!" like enormous omnibus bills!

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by NuclearPizzaMan

Nothing says "Democracy!" like enormous omnibus bills!

I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're standing.

If you voted Conservative last election, I would assume you support their election platform which promised these changes, therefore you probably fully support Conservative democracy in action... ie. omnibus bills that make the promised changes asap.

[afc wimbledon]

Just because I voted for one set of thieving lying #######s doesn't mean I don't want the other set of thieving lying #######s looking over their shoulders and keeping them on their toes.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Just because I voted for one set of thieving lieng #######s doesn't mean I don't want the other set of thieving lieng #######s looking over their shoulders and keeping them on their toes.

So you're saying it takes thief to catch a thief.. LOL

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Rerun

So you're saying it takes thief to catch a thief.. LOL

there's honour amongst thieves, unlike politicians

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

http://www.canada.com/Opposition+bal...512/story.html




Translation to the bolded part:

"Opposition MPs said the government should be introducing its measures in several bills, so that multiple parliamentary committees can hold numerous hearings in which opposition members can delay the changes as long as possible."

This is the reason why the Conservative government introduces these mega bills and this is the reason the opposition parties hate them.

Um no. The opposition wants separate bills so that they can vote in favour of things like MP pension reform and against other egregious things that the government has stuffed in there. You know that full well, but would rather try to make this about he opposition wishing they could stall.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

Um no. The opposition wants separate bills so that they can vote in favour of things like MP pension reform and against other egregious things that the government has stuffed in there. You know that full well, but would rather try to make this about he opposition wishing they could stall.

You are partially right but you do have to concede that delaying tactics by the opposition towards bills that they disagree with is very much part of the plan by opposition parties. By doing it this way, the CPC has taken that card out of the oppositions hands.

The CPC is just trying to implement their platform as quickly and efficiently as possible. After over 6 years of numerous delays and sometimes even the death of some of their bills due to opposition tactics, do you blame them?

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Slava

Um no. The opposition wants separate bills so that they can vote in favour of things like MP pension reform and against other egregious things that the government has stuffed in there. You know that full well, but would rather try to make this about he opposition wishing they could stall.

With a majority isn't the vote mostly symbolic. I don't really following voting patterns but does the NDP ever vote for something that the Conservatives put forward? Aside from the feel good legislation that gets passed from time to time.

[Jacks]

Not a big fan of these bills, I know why they do it but it's not a good way of doing things.

That being said, if the opposition was the slightest bit interested in being constructive things would probably be different.

[metallicat]

I wish the thread title contained more information.

[vanisleflamesfan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You are partially right but you do have to concede that delaying tactics by the opposition towards bills that they disagree with is very much part of the plan by opposition parties. By doing it this way, the CPC has taken that card out of the oppositions hands.

The CPC is just trying to implement their platform as quickly and efficiently as possible. After over 6 years of numerous delays and sometimes even the death of some of their bills due to opposition tactics, do you blame them?

This bolded part is just ridiculous. The Harper government has used Time Allocation, or Closure, to limit debate (a VERY democratic move) over 30 times. A sitting government in Canada has never used Closure as much as the CPC has. It is quite clear that the Conservatives are not interested in even allowing debate, nevermind a chance for the Opposition to use "delay tactics". They just want to ram their legislation through. Very undemocratic.

Also, which bills have died due to "Opposition Tactics"? Surely you can't mean anything that died due to prorogation?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Jacks

Not a big fan of these bills, I know why they do it but it's not a good way of doing things.

That being said, if the opposition was the slightest bit interested in being constructive things would probably be different.

Unfortunately the opposition is defined by their title "opposition".

op·po·si·tion   [op-uh-zish-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1. the action of opposing, resisting, or combating.
2. antagonism or hostility.
3. a person or group of people opposing, criticizing, or protesting something, someone, or another group.
4. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) the major political party opposed to the party in power and seeking to replace it.
5. the act of placing opposite, or the state or position of being placed opposite.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by vanisleflamesfan

This bolded part is just ridiculous. The Harper government has used Time Allocation, or Closure, to limit debate (a VERY democratic move) over 30 times. A sitting government in Canada has never used Closure as much as the CPC has. It is quite clear that the Conservatives are not interested in even allowing debate, nevermind a chance for the Opposition to use "delay tactics". They just want to ram their legislation through. Very undemocratic.

Also, which bills have died due to "Opposition Tactics"? Surely you can't mean anything that died due to prorogation?

Democracy is alive and well at election time when voters get to democratically chose their next Member of Parliament (and the resulting governing party)... which they have.
Nobody said that Parliament itself was democratic. It is in fact far from it... and I don't just mean the actions of parliament... but the parties within also.
The only thing democratic about Parliament is each member has one vote and they get to cast it frequently.... sometimes to little effect if they are a member of the wrong party (ie the party that doesn't have a majority).

Its been this way for over 100 years in Canada. Those parties that win a majority have virtually a benign dictatorship.... until the next election.

[GP_Matt]

Are there any governments that run more in the style of city hall where they aren't allowed to meet at all if it isn't recorded and public. I would love to see proper debate for most issues but instead the procedure is to debate it with caucus behind closed doors and then go to the main debate with your minds made up and ignore the oppositions comments for a suitable amount of time before calling a vote. It would require a whole new level of maturity though.

[MarchHare]

Rerun: what was your opinion of the CPC a few years ago when they issued manuals to their MPs explaining how to sabotage committees and paralyze parliament? Was disrupting the workings of government ok when the Conservatives did it because you agreed with their platform?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Rerun: what was your opinion of the CPC a few years ago when they issued manuals to their MPs explaining how to sabotage committees and paralyze parliament? Was disrupting the workings of government ok when the Conservatives did it because you agreed with their platform?

Nope... its not right which ever party does it.... but unfortunately thats the way it is in Canada's Parliament. Some times they act more like children than grown ups.


...But then as CP members and the way we conduct ourselves sometimes, who are we to cast the first stone?

[OffsideSpecialist]

Here we go again with Rerun's immature editorializing and ridiculous partisanship.

The opposition should absolutely be doing this and I woule question them if they aren't. I would say the same if the party I voted for were in power, but I don't get this partisanship nonsense anyway.

[Reaper]

So, its not right whichever party does it but Rerun will let it slide if it is the Conservative Party responsible.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by OffsideSpecialist

Here we go again with Rerun's immature editorializing and ridiculous partisanship.

The opposition should absolutely be doing this and I woule question them if they aren't. I would say the same if the party I voted for were in power, but I don't get this partisanship nonsense anyway.

Hey... the opposition parties have every right to complain and bitch about what the CPC party is doing.
And the governing party, since they hold the majority of seats in parliament, have every right to do what they are doing. Nothing they are doing is against the rules of parliament.

Democracy in action at its finest.