10-03-2012, 02:52 PM
|
#41
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
Your injuries don't factor into it, this isn't about compensating the victim, it's about targeting activities that are intended to terrorize and intimidate particular groups in a community. Random crimes happen, that's just the way it is, but when you have groups targeting specific people the impact is much greater.
|
I was referencing my injuries to show the two situations were identical except for the basis on which I was chosen by the perpetrators to be one of their victims.
But neither of my instances were random crimes. Both were groups targeting people for the purpose of doing harm. In one of them the method of choosing was either random, or for all we know it was based on my height, weight, attire, favorite sports team. Yet that instance will warrant "regular" laws apply to the perpetrators. In the other situation I was chosen based on sexual orientation.
The point is, why does it matter why the person was chosen? Is the severity of the crime itself not the same? We hear all the time on the news "gay/black/jew/whatever beaten senselessly in an attack last night in the city's NE. Police are investigating if the crime was motivated by sexual orientation/race/religion". Who cares? A guy just got beaten to within an inch of his life and all we're worried about is whether or not it was classifies as a hate crime?
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 10-03-2012 at 02:57 PM.
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 02:53 PM
|
#42
|
|
Took an arrow to the knee
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
Obviously he doesn't mean that.
By protected class I think he means why is religion on the same level as race, nationality, age, class, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity and disability as a protected class under hate crime laws.
|
He means exactly what Rathtji says.
Quote:
|
How does that change anything? Stupid pranks targeting worthless superstitions should not be considered hate crimes.
|
What I see is someone that doesn't believe religion should an identifiable group because he deems it worthless.
__________________
"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 02:57 PM
|
#43
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
I was referencing my injuries to show the two situations were identical except for the basis on which I was chosen by the perpetrators to be one of their victims.
But neither of my instances were random crimes. Both were groups targeting people for the purpose of doing harm. In one of them the method of choosing was either random, or for all we know it was based on my height, weight, attire, favorite sports team. Yet that instance will warrant "regular" laws apply to the perpetrators.
|
Huh? Your example quite clearly contains one incident in which someone is beaten for no reason and one where someone is targeted based upon their gender/sexual orientation. Those are different situations and warrant different treatment. As I said, the latter allows for a group of people to be left living in fear of becoming a victim. Hate crime laws allow groups or individuals who seek to terrorize others based upon sex, religion etc. to be treated more harshly, which in turn (in theory) prevents these protected groups from being intimidated and marginalized.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 02:58 PM
|
#44
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
Huh? Your example quite clearly contains one incident in which someone is beaten for no reason and one where someone is targeted based upon their gender/sexual orientation. Those are different situations and warrant different treatment. As I said, the latter allows for a group of people to be left living in fear of becoming a victim. Hate crime laws allow groups or individuals who seek to terrorize others based upon sex, religion etc. to be treated more harshly, which in turn (in theory) prevents these protected groups from being intimidated and marginalized.
|
No it doesn't. Where did I say the first example was random?
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:01 PM
|
#45
|
|
Offered up a bag of cans for a custom user title
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Westside
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by polak
Anne Frankly, I would pay to see the reaction of the people who got offended by this prank if they ever discover the internet.
|
You aren't banned yet?
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:01 PM
|
#46
|
|
Scoring Winger
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: In a van down by the river
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
What I see is someone that doesn't believe religion should an identifiable group because he deems it worthless.
|
If you consider that someones opinion that a religion is worthless is as much of a personal "belief" as another persons view that their religion is worthwhile, than the same protection is in-place for the non-religious person and their rights to practice their own beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:01 PM
|
#47
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
He means exactly what Rathtji says.
|
Then you didn't read what Rathji wrote. He made the ridiculous claim that because the poster didn't think religion should be a protected class under hate crime laws that it somehow equates to that poster believing that crimes motivated my religious hate should be LEGAL. That's quite a bit different than saying crimes motivated by religion should be just as illegal as crimes not motivated by religion.
Quote:
|
What I see is someone that doesn't believe religion should an identifiable group because he deems it worthless.
|
I agree that is what he said. It still doesn't make Rathji's ridiculous assumption any less ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:03 PM
|
#48
|
|
Took an arrow to the knee
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
The point is, why does it matter why the person was chosen? Is the severity of the crime itself not the same? We hear all the time on the news "gay/black/jew/whatever beaten senselessly in an attack last night in the city's NE. Police are investigating if the crime was motivated by sexual orientation/race/religion". Who cares? A guy just got beaten to within an inch of his life and all we're worried about is whether or not it was classifies as a hate crime?
|
You actually believe motive shouldn't matter in a crime?
If a man kills another man because he believes his life is in danger, he should receive the same punishment as the man that kills another man with the motive to spread fear in a community? I.e., terrorism?
__________________
"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
|
|
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to HPLovecraft For This Useful Post:
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:04 PM
|
#49
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
No it doesn't. Where did I say the first example was random?
|
You most certainly didn't give any reason for it to have happened, and you most certainly gave a reason for the second hypo to have occurred. What did you expect me to take from that?
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:04 PM
|
#50
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
You actually believe motive shouldn't matter in a crime?
If a man kills another man because he believes his life is in danger, he should receive the same punishment as the man that kills another man with the motive to spread fear in a community? I.e., terrorism?
|
Well if you're just going to reciprocate by making more ridiculous assumptions... 
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:07 PM
|
#51
|
|
evil of fart
|
It's becoming impossible to have a normal conversation with Rathji lately. He'll focus on the inconsequential minutia of a post, then pretend not to understand the larger point, then never come back when you clarify it for him.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:08 PM
|
#52
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
You most certainly didn't give any reason for it to have happened, and you most certainly gave a reason for the second hypo to have occurred. What did you expect me to take from that?
|
That hate crime laws unfairly marginalize crimes against people who aren't part of identifiable minority groups?
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:12 PM
|
#53
|
|
Took an arrow to the knee
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
Well if you're just going to reciprocate by making more ridiculous assumptions... |
Tell me how this is a ridiculous assumption. The conclusion I made is a result of what you yourself said in your post. If you don't care why someone is chosen, and all you care about is the severity of the crime itself, then you will arrive at the same punishment for killing a man when disregarding motive, won't you?
__________________
"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:17 PM
|
#54
|
|
Took an arrow to the knee
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
Then you didn't read what Rathji wrote. He made the ridiculous claim that because the poster didn't think religion should be a protected class under hate crime laws that it somehow equates to that poster believing that crimes motivated my religious hate should be LEGAL. That's quite a bit different than saying crimes motivated by religion should be just as illegal as crimes not motivated by religion.
I agree that is what he said. It still doesn't make Rathji's ridiculous assumption any less ridiculous.
|
My bad, I did read it wrong.
__________________
"An adherent of homeopathy has no brain. They have skull water with the memory of a brain."
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:19 PM
|
#55
|
|
In the Sin Bin
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nage Waza
You aren't banned yet?
|
Worse has been posted in the Funny Pics thread my friend.
My jokes were meant as an expression of my belief that this news article is ridiculous. It's not like they draped the buildings with Swastika flags. They made fun of a pretty minor aspect of the religion and culture. I have a hard time imagining how sensitive you'd have to be to really be offended by it.
Vandalism okay, Hate Crime? Give me a break.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:21 PM
|
#56
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPLovecraft
Tell me how this is a ridiculous assumption. The conclusion I made is a result of what you yourself said in your post. If you don't care why someone is chosen, and all you care about is the severity of the crime itself, then you will arrive at the same punishment for killing a man when disregarding motive, won't you?
|
How about we use a not ######ed analogy then? I also never said motive doesn't matter.
Guy x gets murdered for being tall. Guy y gets murdered for being Jewish.
Under our laws the guy who killed Guy x is going to get off lighter than the guy who killed the Jewish guy (all other things being equal).
Please explain why you feel that the murder of both victims should not be met with equal punishment.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:22 PM
|
#57
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
That hate crime laws unfairly marginalize crimes against people who aren't part of identifiable minority groups?
|
Huh? That's the point you were trying to make? With that set of examples? Seriously?
Please address my posts that discuss the reasoning behind hate crime laws if you think that all crime is equal.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:23 PM
|
#58
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
How about we use a not ######ed analogy then? I also never said motive doesn't matter.
Guy x gets murdered for being tall. Guy y gets murdered for being Jewish.
Under our laws the guy who killed Guy x is going to get off lighter than the guy who killed the Jewish guy (all other things being equal).
Please explain why you feel that the murder of both victims should not be met with equal punishment.
|
There are multiple posts that do that on this page, you've chosen to ignore them.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:24 PM
|
#59
|
|
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403
Huh? That's the point you were trying to make? With that set of examples? Seriously?
Please address my posts that discuss the reasoning behind hate crime laws if you think that all crime is equal.
|
I don't think that all crime is equal.
|
|
|
|
|
10-03-2012, 03:27 PM
|
#60
|
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger
I don't think that all crime is equal.
|
What's your deal here? Are you being intentionally vague and evasive?
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:52 PM.
|
|
