Omar Khadr back in Canada

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by FLAME ENVY

15 is a child ?? Most children don't know how to operate grenades or how to build detonation devices. You seem to be sympathetic.

He knew exactly what he was doing. He is a terrorist and should never have made it to Cuba, let alone back to Canada.

I haven't really followed this case much but I am absolutely going to take issue with this statement. Do you even know what is going on in this world? There are children as young as seven in Africa who are ripped from their families drugged up, fed propaganda and taught how to use AK47s, RPGs and grenades. They have no idea what they are doing. Children look to adults for guidance and it's extremely easy to manipulate them into doing horrible things. These kids are basically zombies. They don't fear for their lives when they're loaded up with cocaine. Now I don't know if that's the case for Khadr but in general that's a terrible statement to make.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I haven't really followed this case much but I am absolutely going to take issue with this statement. Do you even know what is going on in this world? There are children as young as seven in Africa who are ripped from their families drugged up, fed propaganda and taught how to use AK47s, RPGs and grenades. They have no idea what they are doing. Children look to adults for guidance and it's extremely easy to manipulate them into doing horrible things. These kids are basically zombies. They don't fear for their lives when they're loaded up with cocaine. Now I don't know if that's the case for Khadr but in general that's a terrible statement to make.

I think Flames Envy, like many, try to relate Omar to the average Canadian kid. However, when one considers the facts posted by Rerun, Omar's experience in life, up to the time he was involved in killing the
American soldier, IMO confirms he was a child victim.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think Flames Envy, like many, try to relate Omar to the average Canadian kid. However, when one considers the facts posted by Rerun, Omar's experience in life, up to the time he was involved in killing the
American soldier, IMO confirms he was a child victim.

No doubt.. he was a child victim. But he's not a child anymore and I would be extremely nervous if he and his family bought a house next to mine. He's had another 10 years of close association with religious extremists and terrorists in Gitmo and god only knows what his perceptions/thoughts/ideas are about the Western world are.

What should have happened is he should have been immediately repatriated to Cdn soil, placed in some kind of detention where he could receive psycological counselling to hopefully reverse the previous 15 years influence of his family... primarily that of his father and mother. Frankly, his parents should have been declared unfit parents, when this all came out. God only knows why they were allowed to continue to raise his younger brother and sister.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Just a refresher on the facts...


Khadr case: Timeline of key events

1977-- Khadr family emigrates from Egypt, settles in southern Ontario

1985 -- Patriarch Ahmen Said Khadr moves to Pakistan at the height of the Soviet war in Afghanistan, meets Osama bin Laden.

Sept. 19 1986-- Omar Khadr is born in Ontario.

1986-- The Khadr family moves back to Pakistan, where the Ahmed Said Khadr works for an organization financed partly by the Canadian International Development Agency

1992-- Ahmed Said Khadr returns to Toronto after his leg is injured in an explosion

1995-- Ahmed Said Khadr is arrested for his alleged role in the bombing of the Egyptian embassy in Islamabad. He is later released after Jean Chretien intervenes on his behalf.

1996-- Family returns to Canada, but Ahmed Said Khadr leaves again for Pakistan, forming his own humanitarian relief group. The family moves to Jalabad in Taliban-controlled eastern Afghanistan, where they live in Osama bin Laden’s camp.

1996– Omar and his brothers are taken to meet Al Qaeda leaders for training at the age of 10. The family makes annual trips to Canada to raise money and collect supplies.

1999-- Khadr family moves to Kabul, where Taliban have taken control after a long civil war.

Nov. 2001-- The U.S.-backed Northern Alliance rebels chase the Taliban out of Kabul. Omar Khadr flees to his father's orphanage in Logar, Afghanistan.

June 2002 -- After training on AK-47s, Soviet PKs and rocket-propelled grenades, Khadr, 15, works as a translator for alQaeda and conducts a surveillance mission.

Oct. 2001-- Ahmed Said Khadr is named on a list of suspected terrorists wanted by the FBI

July 2002-- According to statements of fact later read at his trial, Omar Khadr, now 15, threw a Russian-made F1 grenade from behind the wall of a compound in Afghanistan. The grenade killed U.S. Army Sgt. 1st Class Christopher Speer. Omar Khadr is captured by the U.S. military after its forces bombed the compound. A firefight led to the death of a U.S. soldier and Omar being severely wounded. He lost sight in one eye. First detained at Bagram Air Base.

Oct. 2002-- At age of 16, Khadr is transferred to Guantanamo Bay. Later, lawyers will argue that Khadr was not afforded special safeguards and care, including legal protections appropriate to the age of "child soldiers."

Oct. 2003-- Omar’s father is killed by Pakistani forces.

Feb. 2003-- CSIS officials first interrogate the young Khadr. According to legal documents, he was not provided access to legal counsel until November 2004.

Nov. 2003-- Abdurahman Khadr, Omar Khadr’s younger brother, returns to Toronto after being released from Guantanamo Bay in July. He tells media he travelled and cooperated with U.S. intelligence services in the months between his release and return to Canada.

March 2004 -- Khadr's grandmother, Fatmah Elsamnah, launches lawsuit against the Department of Foreign Affairs, alleging Ottawa failed to protect her grandson's rights as a Canadian. Elsamnah later launches a similar suit against U.S. authorities.

Sept. 2004-- Khadr deemed "enemy combatant” by Combat Status Review Tribunal.

Aug. 2005 -- A Federal Court judge says Canadian agencies, including CSIS, are violating Khadr's Charter rights by turning information gleaned in interviews over to U.S. investigators.

Nov. 2005-- After an Executive Order establishing military commissions, the U.S. government charged Omar with murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, and aiding the enemy.

Dec. 2005 -- Khadr's eldest brother, Abdullah, is arrested in Toronto for allegedly acting as an al Qaeda go-between and supplying explosives.

Based on this, it looks like Omar only lived in Canada for a few months at a time. He was here for a few months after birth, a few months in 1986, and visited in the summers.

Reintegration into Canadian society? When was he ever part. He's spent his entire life in terrorist training camps or Guatanamo Bay.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Rerun

No doubt.. he was a child victim. But he's not a child anymore and I would be extremely nervous if he and his family bought a house next to mine. He's had another 10 years of close association with religious extremists and terrorists in Gitmo and god only knows what his perceptions/thoughts/ideas are about the Western world are.

What should have happened is he should have been immediately repatriated to Cdn soil, placed in some kind of detention where he could receive psycological counselling to hopefully reverse the previous 15 years influence of his family... primarily that of his father and mother. Frankly, his parents should have been declared unfit parents, when this all came out. God only knows why they were allowed to continue to raise his younger brother and sister.

Yeah, I think the situation was made a whole lot worse by sticking him in Guantanamo Bay for years instead of actually following due process. If he'd been charged with a crime right away and given a fair trial, maybe something like what you suggest could have been done. There's probably very little hope of rehabilitating him now.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

He wilfully and cheerfully planted bombs designed to kill as many people as possible. He fought against Canada and has made no apologies about the fact. He is a victim in a number of ways - but at some point in time you have to ask yourself - what should we do with someone who is still obviously a threat to national security? You can't coddle the hate out of someone when it has been bred into someone for their entire life by a crazy ass family.

Cheerfully? You can't know that. Pretty big assumption. Might have been as cheerfully as I did the dishes as a kid. Which is more begrudgingly than cheerfully...

[FLAME ENVY]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

I haven't really followed this case much but I am absolutely going to take issue with this statement. Do you even know what is going on in this world? There are children as young as seven in Africa who are ripped from their families drugged up, fed propaganda and taught how to use AK47s, RPGs and grenades. They have no idea what they are doing. Children look to adults for guidance and it's extremely easy to manipulate them into doing horrible things. These kids are basically zombies. They don't fear for their lives when they're loaded up with cocaine. Now I don't know if that's the case for Khadr but in general that's a terrible statement to make.

You haven't really followed the case yet ask me if I know what is going on in the world ? I could care less if you "absolutely" take issue with my statement. Omar Khadr has shown no remorse for his actions (do some research on his interrogation synopsis by both Canadian and U.S. authorities) and knew exactly what he was doing when he pinned a grenade killing a U.S. medic. Would you feel the same if it was your family member killed at the hands of Khadr ? Zombies - Ah, yeah okay.....

[Hans Landa]

The amount of bleeding hearts in this thread for this 'war child' is sickening.

Burn this ant and the rest of the infesting nest he came from.
I love my country way too much to have an ounce of sympathy for these anti-west parasites and their brainwashed offspring. That goes for all child soldiers. Sad, yes. They were given no chance, but the reality is, their destiny is set in stone. Stomp out the larvae before they grow wings and come back with a sting.

Khadr's title of Canadian Citizen is ridiculous. Anyone with a pulse can get that recognition these days. What to be a real Canadian Citizen? Act like one or gtfo.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Hans Landa

The amount of bleeding hearts in this thread for this 'war child' is sickening.

Burn this ant and the rest of the infesting nest he came from.
I love my country way too much to have an ounce of sympathy for these anti-west parasites and their brainwashed offspring. That goes for all child soldiers. Sad, yes. They were given no chance, but the reality is, their destiny is set in stone. Stomp out the larvae before they grow wings and come back with a sting.

Khadr's title of Canadian Citizen is ridiculous. Anyone with a pulse can get that recognition these days. What to be a real Canadian Citizen? Act like one or gtfo.

Why stop there though? We should probably just change the YCJA to a "three strikes, you're dead" rule. Or just preemptively institutionalize any kid with at least one criminal parent.

Actually, if you really follow that line of reasoning through, it's completely contradictory to your love for Canada, since it's contrary to some of the country's core values, particularly where the treatment of children is concerned.

Unless, of course, you're from the States. In which case, nevermind.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Hans Landa

Khadr's title of Canadian Citizen is ridiculous. Anyone with a pulse can get that recognition these days. What to be a real Canadian Citizen? Act like one or gtfo.

Except for that tricky detail of him being born here. Sorry, but he's a Canadian citizen. Not a good one, obviously, but a Canadian citizen nonetheless.

[Flamenspiel]

Bottom line he killed a coalition member that Canada was a part of, and he planted mines and IEDs that could have killed Canadians. He in fact admitted as much. Its a clear cut case of treason.

Lets not forget that in the second world war in Normandy, Canada fought Kurt Meyer's 15 year olds in the 12th SS panzer division that were involved in the execution of Canadian POWs. Are we going to feel sorry for them as well?

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Bottom line he killed a coalition member that Canada was a part of, and he planted mines and IEDs that could have killed Canadians. He in fact admitted as much. Its a clear cut case of treason.

Lets not forget that in the second world war in Normandy, Canada fought Kurt Meyer's 15 year olds in the 12th SS panzer division that were involved in the execution of Canadian POWs. Are we going to feel sorry for them as well?

Just to play devils advocate...

Suppose one of those 15 year olds was born in Canada of German descent and then his parents decided to move back to Germany a couple of years later. Then WWII starts up and he's drafted into the German Army. He has no choice... its either go or be shot by a firing squad. Is he a traitor?

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Just to play devils advocate...

Suppose one of those 15 year olds was born in Canada of German descent and then his parents decided to move back to Germany a couple of years later. Then WWII starts up and he's drafted into the German Army. He has no choice... its either go or be shot by a firing squad. Is he a traitor?

Remember when they did this in Saving Private Ryan (or was it Band of Brothers)?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Remember when they did this in Saving Private Ryan (or was it Band of Brothers)?

Hogan's Heros actually.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Remember when they did this in Saving Private Ryan (or was it Band of Brothers)?

It was Band of Brothers. IIRC, they encounter a young German POW who was born to a German family that had emigrated to Eugene, Oregon. He says that when the German government asked for military-aged men to enlist (prior to the US declaring war on Germany) "my family answered the call".

One of the members of Easy Company was also from Eugene, and they're shown having a conversation while sharing a cigarette. It's later heavily implied (but not depicted on-screen) that Lt. Spears executed the German POWs, including the American-born German soldier.

[HELPNEEDED]

I'm appauled at the lack of humanity in this thread. There are too many variables that the undereducated seem not to understand.

Not withstanding the fact that the Afghanis were fighting an occupying force, much like they did against the Soviets, at which time all western countires supported them, they were still labelled terrorists (the portion that faught on their native land). Does this mean they don't fall under geneva convention? Or do we stick to USA's, that stance since they had a lack of uniform they were insurgents?

Further, Omar Khadr had no choice, his fortune was chosen for him by his father. He was over powered by " radical-Islamic" propaganda by his father and coherts that he could not be cognisent in what he was doing. Plus he was 15, a mere child. Even if he was not, did he commit a crime? Treason? Yes, but then it is Canada's trial. Regardless one cannot go that far as he was 15.

Like many have said, he should not have spent his tender youth in the depths of Guantanomo Bay, he was isolated and only privy to like minded people (like his father) and his indoctrination probably went further. But does that mean we refuse a Canadian Citizen repatriation due to circumstances beyond his control?

*I am not muslim nor am I anti USA, i'm an impartial Canadian.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It was Band of Brothers. IIRC, they encounter a young German POW who was born to a German family that had emigrated to Eugene, Oregon. He says that when the German government asked for military-aged men to enlist (prior to the US declaring war on Germany) "my family answered the call".

One of the members of Easy Company was also from Eugene, and they're shown having a conversation while sharing a cigarette. It's later heavily implied (but not depicted on-screen) that Lt. Spears executed the German POWs, including the American-born German soldier.

Correct!

[habernac]

Originally Posted by blankall

Based on this, it looks like Omar only lived in Canada for a few months at a time. He was here for a few months after birth, a few months in 1986, and visited in the summers.

Reintegration into Canadian society? When was he ever part. He's spent his entire life in terrorist training camps or Guatanamo Bay.

This. How is he Canada's problem? He's barely been here.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by habernac

This. How is he Canada's problem? He's barely been here.

You know the truth is I wish it wasn't Canada's problem.

Unfortunately there is no citizenship requirement that even if you are born in Canada you still have to spend X amount of months/years here or else you lose it and become a citizen of ???

Frankly there are probably a lot of people in Canada that I wish we could revoke their citizenship and send them to ???? Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Born in Canada and only lived here for 30 days? You still have all the rights of someone who has lived here for 30 years.... unless of course you voluntarily give up your citizenship (ie. Lord Conrad Black)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Rerun

You know the truth is I wish it wasn't Canada's problem.

Unfortunately there is no citizenship requirement that even if you are born in Canada you still have to spend X amount of months/years here or else you lose it and become a citizen of ???

Frankly there are probably a lot of people in Canada that I wish we could revoke their citizenship and send them to ???? Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Born in Canada and only lived here for 30 days? You still have all the rights of someone who has lived here for 30 years.... unless of course you voluntarily give up your citizenship (ie. Lord Conrad Black)

You're obviously right under the present law.

However, being a Canadian citizen should be more than just holding a piece of paper. If you have long absensses from Canada and join a military force that the government of Canada is at war with, that should be reason to strip you of citizenship. Obviously the issue of "treason" is open to abuse, but this case is pretty clear cut.

All that being said, Omar was a child when all of this went down, so it's not necessarily his fault. I'd be all for letting him out of prison and throwing his mother in.