New Edmonton Arena Construction will begin in March 2014

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I'm not opposing a publicly funded arena because I'm anti sports. I love sports, love the Flames. It is just completely and utterly inappropriate to use taxpayer dollars to subsidize a profitable private business. Full stop.

You do realize this happens in non sports settings all the time though, correct? I mean I agree that it's not the best idea, but let's not pretend it's not par for the course.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

You realize that Alberta provides businesses, private ones, tax incentives to set up their head offices or production facilities her all the time. They actually call it the "Alberta Advantage".

Whether you use tax payer dollars to create something like a rink, or whether you simply give a huge coporation a tax break to set up shop here, it's all the same pile, just different wrapping.

Government gives hand outs to big private business all the time to make Alberta an appealing place to be, and to create jobs in our area. Government incentives are pretty key to keeping the economy of this province running. This really isn't much different. Like my original comment said, I'm not sure what the correct hand out in this particular situation is, but I'd wager it's at least something when you compare it to all the other hand outs big business gets to keep Alberta competitve and operations from an economic standpoint.

Isn't Katz asking for both?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Isn't Katz asking for both?

Fair point, probably. Still at the end of the day the key is to determine if the size of the hand out when you combine the two is the right number. Once again, I'm not saying what Katz is asking for is even close to fair or the right number, it probably isn't. It's just people get so up in arms about public funding on things like rinks to private businesses, when really every single big business in this province, which keeps the province running, gets a boat load of government incentives one way or another.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Fair point, probably. Still at the end of the day the key is to determine if the size of the hand out when you combine the two is the right number. Once again, I'm not saying what Katz is asking for is even close to fair or the right number, it probably isn't. It's just people get so up in arms about public funding on things like rinks to private businesses, when really every single big business in this province, which keeps the province running, gets a boat load of government incentives one way or another.

Not that it should be my problem as I don't live in Alberta, but I would imagine if I did have a stake in this, I would be ok with tax breaks and low interest loans, but not for the province to pay out of their pocket.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by valo403

You do realize this happens in non sports settings all the time though, correct? I mean I agree that it's not the best idea, but let's not pretend it's not par for the course.

Supporters of using tax dollars keep repeating this.

If that's truly the case, I'd like to see 'the supporters' come up with a real world (Albertan or Canadian) comparable. Lets see what a 'typical' $250-$300 million (non-sport) investment in a profitable business returns to the taxpayers.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Supporters of using tax dollars keep repeating this.

If that's truly the case, I'd like to see 'the supporters' come up with a real world (Albertan or Canadian) comparable. Lets see what a 'typical' $250-$300 million (non-sport) investment in a profitable business returns to the taxpayers.

I'm not sure how I got lumped in with supporters, but okay, and the point had nothing to do about demonstrating returns, it was about pointing out that the apparent outrage some people seem to have here should be directed at a lot of other sources as well.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm not sure how I got lumped in with supporters, but okay, and the point had nothing to do about demonstrating returns, it was about pointing out that the apparent outrage some people seem to have here should be directed at a lot of other sources as well.

I'll reserve judgement until someone can produce one of these "commonplace" $300 million handouts to established, profitable businesses.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'll reserve judgement until someone can produce one of these "commonplace" $300 million handouts to established, profitable businesses.

Where did anyone say that deals were always of a particular size? The fact is that governments hand out benefits to private for profit businesses on a daily basis, if you don't believe that you're simply being naive.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Not that it should be my problem as I don't live in Alberta, but I would imagine if I did have a stake in this, I would be ok with tax breaks and low interest loans, but not for the province to pay out of their pocket.

Fair, but really it's the same #### different pile. Whether you give someone money out of pocket after collecting, or simply choose not to collect, it actually equals the same thing in the end.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by valo403

Where did anyone say that deals were always of a particular size? The fact is that governments hand out benefits to private for profit businesses on a daily basis, if you don't believe that you're simply being naive.

Ok well, show me where it's happening.

[Tinordi]

Paying for a company's factory, office building, or other piece of fixed capital that is generating a return for the company is apparently quite common place. So lets have it, where else is it occurring?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Paying for a company's factory, office building, or other piece of fixed capital that is generating a return for the company is apparently quite common place. So lets have it, where else is it occurring?

Here's a Mitsubishi pulp mill that had it's $140M debt written off. This was after Alberta already spent $75M in infrastructure costs. I think the timber rights were thrown in as well.

http://www.efones.ca/pulpmills.html

http://books.google.ca/books?id=g3cL...roject&f=false

Here's more

On June 1/97 restructuring of the Alberta debt was completed and on April 30/97 Millar settled its debt to our province by issuing a $25 MILLION non-interest bearing note payable and cash of $6.5 MILLION. At the same time the $264 MILLION of debt owing to the taxpayers and citizens of Alberta, by way of a loan from The Heritage Trust Fund to Millar Western to build a pulp mill, was written off. Not a single penny was paid by Millar Western on that debt.

Premier Klein stated that the loan was a “sweetheart deal.” He did not explain why such a loan could be made from the sacred Heritage Savings and Trust Fund.

also

The Millars of Edmonton became the sole owners of the Whitecourt pulp mill after the Alberta Government, their partner, walked away from the mill in April/97 because it incorrectly considered the mill to be a money pit.
The Province of Alberta lost $244 MILLION on the sale of the mill. The Alberta government has dug into our Heritage Savings and Trust fund for loans dating back to 1987 and began making loan-loss provisions in 1994.

That's a total of over $500M for the Millars sweetheart deal.

Daishowa another pulp mill outfit received $275M in subordinated debentures and $75M in infrastructure costs.

[badger89]

The government's also put billions into the oil sands in the form of tax breaks.

[Azure]

Not sure how the oil sands are comparable. The are a known money maker in terms of tax revenue. A new rink, not so much.

Also, huge difference between walking away from a bad deal, or writing off a bad debt for whatever reason. I mean I know we got nothing out of it as taxpayers, but there is still a difference.

Fact is Katz is the only one benefiting from the Edmonton Oilers in terms of making money, and as a result only HE should pay for the new building.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not sure how the oil sands are comparable. The are a known money maker in terms of tax revenue. A new rink, not so much.

Also, huge difference between walking away from a bad deal, or writing off a bad debt for whatever reason. I mean I know we got nothing out of it as taxpayers, but there is still a difference.

Fact is Katz is the only one benefiting from the Edmonton Oilers in terms of making money, and as a result only HE should pay for the new building.

The pulp mill was making money. The only 'for whatever reason' I can come up with is it lined one of Ralph's buddies pockets.

[Azure]

I'm not defending it. Just saying it is a different situation.

[Robo]

Frodo's all grown up

[getbak]

The circus will never leave Edmonton as long as the clowns are in charge.

Katz took out a full page ad in the Edmonton Journal today to issue an apology to the people of Edmonton and all Oiler fans: http://www.scribd.com/doc/108046008/Katz-apology-letter

To the People of Edmonton, Northern Alberta and Oilers Fans Everywhere,

I owe you an explanation.

I was upset when certain confidential information was leaked and by comments that I thought were unfair and called my integrity into question. I reacted by trying to send a message to City leaders that they should not take my support for a new arena for granted.

In doing so, I took for granted your support and your love of the Oilers.

That was wrong, and I apologize.

The best I can say is that I did it because I’m fighting for a deal that will enable the team to stay in Edmonton – and not because I want them to be anywhere else.

It's a pretty short letter considering all the things he has to be sorry about.

[Locke]

Hes still being an idiot by even alluding to moving the team. He will never, ever, ever be allowed to move that team in today's NHL climate.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hes still being an idiot by even alluding to moving the team. He will never, ever, ever be allowed to move that team in today's NHL climate.

Just because you have the ability to make lots of money doesn't mean you are exceptionally intelligent. Organized crime and other gangs make tons of money.