Tesla unveils supercharger locations

[jammies]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

there will be no sustainable management of such, if even 5% of cars switched to electric use, electricity rates would go sky high, and so would coal combustion.

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Have you ever taken an economics class? It does not matter if consumption is still below capacity. Economics don't require calculations in the case I have presented, its a simple qualitative analysis.

See your first quote? It matters very much how much extra load there is, because "sky high", while hardly precise, implies there will be shortages of electricity and coal that will drive prices way, way, up. If the current capacity of the system is sufficient to handle the increased load, those prices may go up, but saying they will go way way up NO MATTER WHAT the increased load is, is asinine.

What it 0.1% of cars were converted? 0.5%? How about 2%? What is the magic behind 5% that makes you absolutely certain that this is the breaking point that will make rates soar? Answer: you have no idea, you just took a likely sounding number and went with it.

-edit- Looks like average daily power consumption in Alberta is around 200 megawatts, so adding the 11.2 megawatts/day to power 5% of our cars with electricity would add 5.6% demand. Or, to put it in perspective, about the same amount of additional capacity needed in Alberta just thru growth from 2007-2012, and I haven't noticed rates going "sky-high" or coal seams being exhausted just yet.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

35W-50W per square foot depending on the build of the panel.

Readily available? That's awesome, I didn't know the available stuff had improved that much.

[seattleflamer]

there is a nice comparison of vehicle costs from a reliable third party source:

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...o-operate.html

In miles-per-gallon terms, we found the Leaf gets the energy equivalent of 106 mpg, based on efficiency of 3.16 miles per kilowatt-hour of electricity. If you charge it at national average electric rates of 11 cents per kilowatt hour, you’ll pay about $2.42 to charge the car. (Admittedly, electric rates at our test track in rural Connecticut are almost double that: 19 cents per kWh. Along with New York, Connecticut has the highest rates of any state in the continental United States. But even at that rate, the Leaf costs about 20-percent less than the Prius to operate and about half the cost of the Corolla.)

It is more expensive to make it work in say, Hawaii (~20cents/KwH) to drive electric versus say WA state where it costs ~8 cents/KwH on 80% hydro based energy.

[Ashartus]

I could see getting an electric car as the family's second vehicle, since it's just used for commuting and errands. For now I'd still want to keep a gasoline vehicle for longer trips and things like camping - though if the range of electric cars keeps increasing there may come a point where even that isn't a problem, particularly if you can just charge your car while you eat lunch.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I could see getting an electric car as the family's second vehicle, since it's just used for commuting and errands. For now I'd still want to keep a gasoline vehicle for longer trips and things like camping - though if the range of electric cars keeps increasing there may come a point where even that isn't a problem, particularly if you can just charge your car while you eat lunch.

Definitely my thinking too, for the city car for the family it would be perfect for us, and we'd keep the gas guzzler for the out of town trips.

[polak]

Not interested. I drive a lot and

- Tesla S is a city car only.

- If your batteries break or need to be replaced you're so effed. Battery swapping will not be feasible for decades when you may start to see wide scale adaptation and by then your batteries will be long gone.

- For the price it's very slow and if you want to go fast, then your range plummets. Yes I realize my interest in performance puts me out of their target market... just sharing my opinion.

- This thing is competing with the 335i, S4 and C63 Amg, all of which blow it out of the water in everything besides fuel efficiency and if you're able to afford a car like that, you're not buying it for fuel savings.

- No AWD, No Thanks.

- If the car should break, there will probably only be what? one? maybe two shops that work on them? It will be insanely expensive to maintain once your warranty runs out.

If I wanted to save on gas in the city, I'd buy a leaf or wait until one of the small euro hatches comes out here with diesel.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I could see getting an electric car as the family's second vehicle, since it's just used for commuting and errands. For now I'd still want to keep a gasoline vehicle for longer trips and things like camping - though if the range of electric cars keeps increasing there may come a point where even that isn't a problem, particularly if you can just charge your car while you eat lunch.

Depending on how often you travel outside the city for camping and such, it will probably be more economical to buy an electric car and simply rent a gasoline vehicle for long trips.

[Bobblehead]

In an electric car, is there the same speed/mileage relationship?

From a mechanical point of view, does going faster in an electric car decrease range like a gas powered car?

[photon]

I would imagine so, going faster takes more energy, doesn't matter if it's gas or electricity.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

In an electric car, is there the same speed/mileage relationship?

From a mechanical point of view, does going faster in an electric car decrease range like a gas powered car?

Estimated ranges are based on 55 mph. Also that kind of depends on the climate that they did these tests in. For instance, you probably wont get range in Calgary, and your range will probably decrease again if you drive it Siberia (aka: Edmonton).

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by photon

I would imagine so, going faster takes more energy, doesn't matter if it's gas or electricity.

Well due to drag and so on, I would agree.

But gasoline requiring explosive combustion to convert to mechanical energy then all the distribution via drive train - a large part of the process doesn't exist in electrical. Put power to a motor on the wheel, much less complexity or places to lose efficiency.

And aren't electrical motors much more efficient than engines?

[Cowperson]

Interesting article on "Peak Car," the fact that citizens in major industrial countries are starting to drive less mileage.

http://business.time.com/2012/09/25/...each-peak-car/

Cowperson

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And aren't electrical motors much more efficient than engines?

You can get electric motors that have efficiency ratings of ~95+% in a direct drive setting. These cars still have a simple drive train which introduces some loses, but they are still very efficient

If I remember right the average internal combustion engine is in the 25-30% efficient before you factor in the rest of the drive train.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

But gasoline requiring explosive combustion to convert to mechanical energy then all the distribution via drive train - a large part of the process doesn't exist in electrical. Put power to a motor on the wheel, much less complexity or places to lose efficiency.

Very true, but I would guess the percentage of energy lost (not used to move the car) would be pretty constant regardless of speed, but that's just a guess.

Did find this:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Also they had this on the Tesla site, shows how much aerodynamic drag contributes:

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

And aren't electrical motors much more efficient than engines?

That's what I think I've read as well.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by jammies

See your first quote? It matters very much how much extra load there is, because "sky high", while hardly precise, implies there will be shortages of electricity and coal that will drive prices way, way, up. If the current capacity of the system is sufficient to handle the increased load, those prices may go up, but saying they will go way way up NO MATTER WHAT the increased load is, is asinine.

What it 0.1% of cars were converted? 0.5%? How about 2%? What is the magic behind 5% that makes you absolutely certain that this is the breaking point that will make rates soar? Answer: you have no idea, you just took a likely sounding number and went with it.

-edit- Looks like average daily power consumption in Alberta is around 200 megawatts, so adding the 11.2 megawatts/day to power 5% of our cars with electricity would add 5.6% demand. Or, to put it in perspective, about the same amount of additional capacity needed in Alberta just thru growth from 2007-2012, and I haven't noticed rates going "sky-high" or coal seams being exhausted just yet.

I'm affraid you don't understand economics.

Short term elasticiy vs. Long term, where does 5years lie in that?

The reason I chose 5% arbritrarly was because .1% or .2% won't change a damn thing, ecologically or economically, so there is no need for conversation.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

The reason I chose 5% arbritrarly was because .1% or .2% won't change a damn thing, ecologically or economically, so there is no need for conversation.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? HOW do you know 5% is significant, but .1% or .2% is not? You even admit you chose it arbitrarily!

[return to the red]

'bout time we are seeing some cool electric cars at "affordable" prices. Really Makes you wonder how much the oil and gas industry paid to keep the R&D focused strictly on fuel consuming technology.

also I find this interesting and wonder what it adds to the recharge

From Tesla motors site
Will Model S use regenerative braking to recharge the battery?
Yes.

[Radio]

How do these electric cars perform in winter temperatures? How are they at -30° C? Has there been any testing under those sorts of conditions?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by return to the red

'bout time we are seeing some cool electric cars at "affordable" prices. Really Makes you wonder how much the oil and gas industry paid to keep the R&D focused strictly on fuel consuming technology.

Probably nothing....The first manufacturer to build an electric car would have been ultra rich. The best way to get rid of competitors is to out inovate them.

The issue holding back electric vehicles was/is battery technology. And no the automobile industries do not have the power to hold back battery technology. Every consumer and electronics company in the world has an interest in developing better batteries.

[photon]

We don't even need fusion, a battery with a similar energy density to gasoline would be a total game changer. Just build a solar array in the middle of the desert and ship the batteries back and forth; we already do that with billions of gallons of oil.