2012 NFL Season Thread

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Aside from that play, I think it's unfair that the replacement refs are being blamed. They are just doing their job, to the best that they can. I think we are seeing that reffing pro sports is incredibly difficult. Don't blame the replacement refs for making mistakes, they are being thrust into a league that is way above their heads, with FAR more exposure than they have ever faced before.

Blame the league and the striking refs, but don't blame the replacements.

That's a cop out, were they forced to take the job?

They aren't being thrust into anything, the opportunity was there and they took it. If they didn't know what they were stepping into they they probably aren't the right people for the job.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I definitely wouldn't say that it's clear that Jennings touches the ball first. If simply having one hand on the ball didn't demonstrate some level of control, one handed catches wouldn't count.

As to your last sentence, they way you worded it is not correct. You are stating that someone had control first. That is covered in the rule book. However, if two players gain control of the ball at the same time, it is a simultaneous catch. Again, it does not matter whether one player has "more control" of the ball. We can't say that Tate didn't have control of the ball because he only had one hand on it. (Neither can we say for sure that he did have control of it). It is completely possible to have control of the ball, having only ever had one hand on the ball, or else one handed catches would be illegal. Maybe Jennings gets "control" of the ball slightly before Tate, MAYBE. However, the ruling on the field was a simultaneous catch, and I don't think that anyone can say definitively that that call was incorrect, according to the rule book. If that call is not reviewable, there was nothing to overturn in the review. Also, if the call was in fact wrong, I don't think you can argue that its really a replacement ref problem. The actual refs could just as easily have called the same play the same way. It's a non reviewable judgement call, and happens in a split second, within a crowd of people.

Again, from what I can see, I think the call is correct, but I think it's a very gray area. I certainly don't think anyone can review the play and the rulebook, and say definitively that the WRONG call was made.

Sure we can. Placing a hand on the ball does not demonstrate control in the mind of any rational person. Use the example I gave you.

You're holding a ball in your hands, I place my hand on it. Do we now both have control? Who was there first is besides the point.

I'm not sure why you're pointing to one handed catches as they require much more than simply having a hand on the ball. They require a demonstration of control and possession, not simply the placement of a hand on the ball.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Aside from that play, I think it's unfair that the replacement refs are being blamed. They are just doing their job, to the best that they can. I think we are seeing that reffing pro sports is incredibly difficult. Don't blame the replacement refs for making mistakes, they are being thrust into a league that is way above their heads, with FAR more exposure than they have ever faced before.

Blame the league and the striking refs, but don't blame the replacements.

If you look around I think you'd see that pretty much everyone is blaming the NFL, not the replacement refs, for having guys out there who are in over their heads.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Aside from that play, I think it's unfair that the replacement refs are being blamed. They are just doing their job, to the best that they can. I think we are seeing that reffing pro sports is incredibly difficult. Don't blame the replacement refs for making mistakes, they are being thrust into a league that is way above their heads, with FAR more exposure than they have ever faced before.

Blame the league and the striking refs, but don't blame the replacements.

I'm pretty sure that being locked out and being on strike are not the same thing... and last I heard they were locked out.

Don't blame the NFL refs... blame the cheapskate greedy NFL owners.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I'm pretty sure that being locked out and being on strike are not the same thing... and last I heard they were locked out.

Don't blame the NFL refs... blame the cheapskate greedy NFL owners.

Actually, I think there is enough blame for all the parties to get a big chunk of blame.

[calumniate]

Just imagine if the NHL decided to do this and hire high school refs. People would be dying on the ice haha.. the pros can hardly keep control of the game.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by valo403

Sure we can. Placing a hand on the ball does not demonstrate control in the mind of any rational person. Use the example I gave you.

You're holding a ball in your hands, I place my hand on it. Do we now both have control? Who was there first is besides the point.

I'm not sure why you're pointing to one handed catches as they require much more than simply having a hand on the ball. They require a demonstration of control and possession, not simply the placement of a hand on the ball.

It's beside the point? The NFL rule book makes it very clear that if someone has control of the ball first, then there cannot be a simultaneous catch. So, no, we both do not have control in your scenario.

Under the NFL's non definition of control, one hand grabbing the ball certainly is control, in some circumstances (as I said, a one handed catch). Maybe Tate only had his hand pressed against the ball, but he very easily could have had a complete grasp of the ball with his one hand that was on the ball. It is impossible to know for sure, either way. It does appear that his one hand was on the ball all the way to the ground, at which point, the play is over. If you can find some conclusive evidence that Tate's hand wasn't in constant contact with the ball the whole time, then the call on the field is incorrect. However, it looks like there are always at least three hands on the ball. As the NFL's statement says, there is nothing in the review that shows conclusively that a simultaneous catch wasn't made, so the call cannot be overturned.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by valo403

If you look around I think you'd see that pretty much everyone is blaming the NFL, not the replacement refs, for having guys out there who are in over their heads.

I think most people understand that, yes. However, there are some out there that are criticizing the replacements.

Originally Posted by Rerun

I'm pretty sure that being locked out and being on strike are not the same thing... and last I heard they were locked out.

Don't blame the NFL refs... blame the cheapskate greedy NFL owners.

Like, the NHL lockout, I don't think that only the party initiating the work stoppage is to be held to blame. There is blame on both sides. But blaming the replacement refs for a a lower standard of reffing is like getting me to do the structural design for a skyscraper, than blaming me when the building collapses. Actually, I'd probably decline the work, but no div 3 college ref is going to decline an invitation by the NFL to come and ref games - its the oppurtunity of a lifetime for them. Plus I imagine that they are making in one game what they make for a whole season of work where they where reffing before.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Just imagine if the NHL decided to do this and hire high school refs. People would be dying on the ice haha.. the pros can hardly keep control of the game.

I was thinking about that last night too. The NHL would be particularly awful. The coaches and the players in the NFL are trying to intimidate/otherwise influence the replacement refs into making bad calls, and I think that it would be much worse in the NHL were to do the same thing.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

It's beside the point? The NFL rule book makes it very clear that if someone has control of the ball first, then there cannot be a simultaneous catch. So, no, we both do not have control in your scenario.

Are you incapable of understanding the concept of an example? I'm not discussing anything regarding simultaneousness, I'm talking exclusively about the concept of control.

Do I, or do I not, have control in that example?

And for the love of god stop referencing one handed catches. In order to make a successful one handed catch you must demonstrate control and possession. That is not applicable here.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by valo403

Are you incapable of understanding the concept of an example? I'm not discussing anything regarding simultaneousness, I'm talking exclusively about the concept of control.

Do I, or do I not, have control in that example?

And for the love of god stop referencing one handed catches. In order to make a successful one handed catch you must demonstrate control and possession. That is not applicable here.

Under the NFL's rulebook, you do not have control in that example, as I've stated several times now. Your example also has no relevance to this discussion. Even the slow motion replays are at best inconclusive who had control first. I thinkyou are arguing that only one player can have control and possession at one time. However, the very fact that there is a simultaneous catch rule means that it is possible for two opposing players to both have control at the same time. Tate very easily could have had as much control of the ball as a player who makes a one handed catch, that doesn't mean that Jennings doesn't also have control. My point is, that no one knows for sure. It looks like he might have, that was the call on the field, and there wasn't evidence to overturn it.

You have made the assertion that it's not applicable here, your duty is now to explain why - using the NFL's rulebook.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Under the NFL's rulebook, you do not have control in that example, as I've stated several times now.

You have made the assertion that it's not applicable here, your duty is now to explain why - using the NFL's rulebook.

I did that in my first post, scroll on back.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by valo403

I did that in my first post, scroll on back.

...scrolled on back...

The example you posted from the rulebook applies to when one player has control of the ball before another player does. Which I've already agreed with you on. However, you stated that it's obvious that Jennings has control first, to which I've stated that it's at best indeterminable who had control first, and the NFL's statement given agrees with me on that.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Like, the NHL lockout, I don't think that only the party initiating the work stoppage is to be held to blame. There is blame on both sides. But blaming the replacement refs for a a lower standard of reffing is like getting me to do the structural design for a skyscraper, than blaming me when the building collapses. Actually, I'd probably decline the work, but no div 3 college ref is going to decline an invitation by the NFL to come and ref games - its the oppurtunity of a lifetime for them. Plus I imagine that they are making in one game what they make for a whole season of work where they where reffing before.

I think the vast majority of people are blaming the 'guys that hired you', not you in this instance. Similiar to how the NFL is getting a lot of the heat.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

...scrolled on back...

The example you posted from the rulebook applies to when one player has control of the ball before another player does. Which I've already agreed with you on. However, you stated that it's obvious that Jennings has control first, to which I've stated that it's at best indeterminable who had control first, and the NFL's statement given agrees with me on that.

The NFL's statement is ass covering. Jennings clearly has control first.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by valo403

The NFL's statement is ass covering. Jennings clearly has control first.

You have to have Xray vision or omniscience to determine that conclusively.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

...scrolled on back...

The example you posted from the rulebook applies to when one player has control of the ball before another player does. Which I've already agreed with you on. However, you stated that it's obvious that Jennings has control first, to which I've stated that it's at best indeterminable who had control first, and the NFL's statement given agrees with me on that.

Originally Posted by valo403

The NFL's statement is ass covering. Jennings clearly has control first.

I don't think the NFL is even covering themselves. They made an effort to avoid labelling the call as correct or incorrect.

All their statement did is explain what happened and the decision the ref made.

There is no judgement by the NFL at all as to whether it was the correct call. At least not that I read in that statement.

Edit: the only judgement in that statement is with regards to the blown offensive PI call.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

You have to have Xray vision or omniscience to determine that conclusively.

Nope, you just have to watch the replay. It's really not that difficult.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by valo403

Nope, you just have to watch the replay. It's really not that difficult.

The NFL disagrees with you.

[valo403]

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