Mass. judge orders taxpayer-funded sex change operation for convicted murderer

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Here's the study you asked for:

"it is concluded that there is no reason to doubt the therapeutic effect of sex reassignment surgery."

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k497mtt07u131l06/


There is nothing wrong with me, you are just extremely sheltered so you aren't used to my opinions or being called out on yours.

Without a doubt the surgery works, it is a surgery that is done to make someone similar to another sex, yet not close at all. I am not sure why I am sheltered? You need to chill out.

I asked you a bunch of questions that you keep ignoring, I assume now you are trolling this thread.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Most of my objections come from the bigotry displayed throughout the thread towards transgender people. Which is really gross, just like sexism, racism, homophobia or any other bigotry is really gross.

Maybe I missed something, but I read your accusations and somehow missed the hatred in this thread. If I skimmed past it, show me. Otherwise I did not see it, and instead saw you doing the hating.

I don't care what someone does sexually and also insist on rights of minorities. I am concerned when I see that there are people that think a sex change is equal to a life saving liver transplant. I also am shocked that if I compare a sex change to a nose job then I am a bigot. In both situations the physical body is causing emotional problems for the person.

And I am fairly sure those that think this murderer should go without the surgery are aware there are bleeding hearts out there that put the surgery on the same level as a liver transplant and for that we are peeved.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Maybe I missed something, but I read your accusations and somehow missed the hatred in this thread. If I skimmed past it, show me. Otherwise I did not see it, and instead saw you doing the hating.

I don't care what someone does sexually and also insist on rights of minorities. I am concerned when I see that there are people that think a sex change is equal to a life saving liver transplant. I also am shocked that if I compare a sex change to a nose job then I am a bigot. In both situations the physical body is causing emotional problems for the person.

And I am fairly sure those that think this murderer should go without the surgery are aware there are bleeding hearts out there that put the surgery on the same level as a liver transplant and for that we are peeved.

But one, the medical communities in the United States, Canada, and the UK (and many others) have decided, is medically necessary (in most cases) and one is not.

So you must admit that there is obviously a difference to these 2 things, perhaps one that you don't understand, and that's fine. I don't understand why most medical treatments work, because I am not a doctor and the last schooling I had on anything related to biology was in Grade 9. That's why we have experts on things.

I don't go to a the AMA website when I want to learn about financial investments, just like I don't go to APEGA when I want to find out about the long term effects of smoking on an unborn fetus.

The research shows that the Standards of Care (or variations of it) is the best option we have for treatment of these things, and it includes, after a strict diagnostic procedure, that surgery is an option in some cases. The standards are so strict that many transgendered people complain that is is so hard to get the surgery done. That is because it is designed to keep unfit candidates from slipping through the cracks - although like any medical procedure, I am sure you can find examples where people screwed up a diagnosis.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Rathji

But one, the medical communities in the United States, Canada, and the UK (and many others) have decided, is medically necessary (in most cases) and one is not.

We have all said that we are aware of the medical communities opinion on this, and yet we still DISAGREE. We can put that point away. A judge decided on the case, so clearly the law is behind it as well, and yet we still DISAGREE. Get over it.

Someone out there just committed suicide because they were 'too ugly', yet there is no health care for fixing that. Clearly the realm of a sex change making it to a covered procedure is due to other reasons. The fact someone in jail has the same coverage is even more crazy. For many people, they suffer in their own way due to their own self image.

There are lots of things the government does with our money that we disagree with. Are you trying to say we should not or could not have an opinion on this? We are not doctors right? Therefor we do not know enough?

Maybe this whole website should be shutdown since we are not hockey players.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Oh poor you, having to show people basic respect. Must be so hard.

The irony just keeps getting better.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

I actually never intended to call them anything. I only said 'he' because I had quickly glanced at the article and noticed that the person was actually a 'he.'

I would guess if I looked at someone and they looked like a male, I would call them a 'he', and if I looked at someone and they looked like a female, I would call them a 'she'...but apparently that doesn't work anymore.

Better to refer to them as an 'it' and refrain from pissing people off.

Do you read your posts before submitting them to hear what you sound like?

"It"?

You don't think calling someone 'it' will be offensive?

[Red Potato Standing By]

Calling him a he sorta offended people as well. Can not please everyone.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

We have all said that we are aware of the medical communities opinion on this, and yet we still DISAGREE. We can put that point away. A judge decided on the case, so clearly the law is behind it as well, and yet we still DISAGREE. Get over it.

Someone out there just committed suicide because they were 'too ugly', yet there is no health care for fixing that. Clearly the realm of a sex change making it to a covered procedure is due to other reasons. The fact someone in jail has the same coverage is even more crazy. For many people, they suffer in their own way due to their own self image.

There are lots of things the government does with our money that we disagree with. Are you trying to say we should not or could not have an opinion on this? We are not doctors right? Therefor we do not know enough?

Maybe this whole website should be shutdown since we are not hockey players.

As I said to a another poster, I will agree with doctors and science, and you can agree with whoever you want.

That's your call.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Rathji

No, as I already stated twice, I am not totally against removing funding for most medical procedures for inmates.

This thread is obviously not about that though, as no one has complained about other medical procedures that inmates receive.

How exactly can this thread not be about the fact that he murdered his wife? If he had not, he would not be in jail, we would not be having this discussion, he would be allowed to undergo any proceeder he wants and i would nary bat an eye.
And to say you are just going to leave the arguments of necessity to doctors and judges... what a cop out.
ridiculous!

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Do you read your posts before submitting them to hear what you sound like?

"It"?

You don't think calling someone 'it' will be offensive?

He meant to be offensive.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

How exactly can this thread not be about the fact that he murdered his wife? If he had not, he would not be in jail, we would not be having this discussion, he would be allowed to undergo any proceeder he wants and i would nary bat an eye.
And to say you are just going to leave the arguments of necessity to doctors and judges... what a cop out.
ridiculous!

I like to separate the two aspects of this story but if you just want to consider the murder aspect of it, I know of a murderer that I'd enjoy hearing that he had his male bits chopped off.

My problem with some of the posters is that they have no understanding of the gender aspect of this story, despite a few posters such as WW, FW, Rathji etc. trying to educate them. They go off with their half cocked, wrong and insulting opinions.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Maybe I missed something, but I read your accusations and somehow missed the hatred in this thread. If I skimmed past it, show me. Otherwise I did not see it, and instead saw you doing the hating.

I don't care what someone does sexually and also insist on rights of minorities. I am concerned when I see that there are people that think a sex change is equal to a life saving liver transplant. I also am shocked that if I compare a sex change to a nose job then I am a bigot. In both situations the physical body is causing emotional problems for the person.

And I am fairly sure those that think this murderer should go without the surgery are aware there are bleeding hearts out there that put the surgery on the same level as a liver transplant and for that we are peeved.

Comparing this to a nose job is offensive. Trans people have a 41% suicide attempt rate outside of prison. It's not an elective procedure, it's essential care.

She's already in prison as she should be, but she deserves medical care as all prisoners do. I know a lot of people want to punish, punish, punish criminals but that is just part of what prisons should be for. A healthy, taken care of prison population helps everyone because when prisoners get out they are far less likely to reoffend. Throwing them to the wolves just creates more misery that hurts everyone because they are more likely to reoffend. If you compare reoffend rates of countries you'll notice that trend.

You should treat mental health as just as important as physical health. Mental health is forgotten about by a lot of society, and changing that would go a long way in improving the quality of life for everyone. Mentally healthy people commit less crime, are easier to get along with, can maintain employment, and function better overall. That's good for everyone. I don't see why you would want to stand in the way of that because you don't think people deserve it or you don't want to believe that gender reassignment surgery is necessary because it conflicts with some outdated worldview you have.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

How exactly can this thread not be about the fact that he murdered his wife? If he had not, he would not be in jail, we would not be having this discussion, he would be allowed to undergo any proceeder he wants and i would nary bat an eye.
And to say you are just going to leave the arguments of necessity to doctors and judges... what a cop out.
ridiculous!

Because any murderer who requires any other medically necessary procedure has it done for them in prison, so complaining all the sudden that THIS guy is getting treatment, means its not about him being a murderer.

I also said that I would not be against all inmates being forced to pay for medical treatment, in the same manner that a regular citizen would, but that's not how the prison system in this situation does things.

I never said I would leave arguments to the doctors and judges, and if you took that from what I said, then I will restate it. A couple posters have disagreed with my statements that doctors agree that this is medically necessary and that science supports that. They said they disagreed with me, so I said I would agree with the doctors and scientists and they could agree with Jenny McCarthy or whoever else they get medical advice from.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Because any murderer who requires any other medically necessary procedure has it done for them in prison, so complaining all the sudden that THIS guy is getting treatment, means its not about him being a murderer.

I also said that I would not be against all inmates being forced to pay for medical treatment, in the same manner that a regular citizen would, but that's not how the prison system in this situation does things.

I never said I would leave arguments to the doctors and judges, and if you took that from what I said, then I will restate it. A couple posters have disagreed with my statements that doctors agree that this is medically necessary and that science supports that. They said they disagreed with me, so I said I would agree with the doctors and scientists and they could agree with Jenny McCarthy or whoever else they get medical advice from.

But, it really isn't necessary I think that is what people are trying to get across. He is free to feel and even act like a female. But in his current life situation it basically is just cosmetic. He will still be alive without the surgery and he won't die because he doesn't get it. Maybe they can compromise and get his family to pay for it.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Besides in the article I believe it stated that the surgery is view to be an elective surgery, so why would it be considered a necessary one in prison?

[Yasa]

I think the argument of necessity should be left up to the doctors that know more about it than most of us here.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Yasa

I think the argument of necessity should be left up to the doctors that know more about it than most of us here.

Suit yourself. I personally believe it should be left to whoever has the strongest opinion, because they usually feel they're the most right.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Yasa

I think the argument of necessity should be left up to the doctors that know more about it than most of us here.

So in other words the doctors are saying he will die without the procedure? And actually I think it was left up to a judges final decision.( aim not a judge so I don't know how much medical training they have). I could also bbe reading it wrong.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Do you read your posts before submitting them to hear what you sound like?

"It"?

You don't think calling someone 'it' will be offensive?

'It' or 'they' can often be used mistakenly from a desire to try to NOT be offensive. Not wanting to say the wrong thing (he when it should be she or vice versa) and saying something else bad anyway. I know I've done that in the past with absolutely NO ill intent. Just confusion and a nervous desire to NOT say the wrong thing.

Can we build some bridges instead of tearing everyone down? There is some good conversation in this thread.

[Badger Bob]

Originally Posted by Rathji

But one, the medical communities in the United States, Canada, and the UK (and many others) have decided, is medically necessary (in most cases) and one is not.

So you must admit that there is obviously a difference to these 2 things, perhaps one that you don't understand, and that's fine. I don't understand why most medical treatments work, because I am not a doctor and the last schooling I had on anything related to biology was in Grade 9. That's why we have experts on things.

I don't go to a the AMA website when I want to learn about financial investments, just like I don't go to APEGA when I want to find out about the long term effects of smoking on an unborn fetus.

The research shows that the Standards of Care (or variations of it) is the best option we have for treatment of these things, and it includes, after a strict diagnostic procedure, that surgery is an option in some cases. The standards are so strict that many transgendered people complain that is is so hard to get the surgery done. That is because it is designed to keep unfit candidates from slipping through the cracks - although like any medical procedure, I am sure you can find examples where people screwed up a diagnosis.

You keep instructing us that it's a medical necessity, based on reports and journals from the Top Medical Professionals of the Western World. You even cited Thailand, which happens to be Destination 1 for plenty of sex trade vacation revelers, seeking 13 year old flesh. Yet, apart from excessive use of sarcasm in your posts, the only direct link supplied has been to a site for something called the World Professional Association of Transgender Health. No bias there. Taxpayers ought to just reach deeply into their pockets and pay up, based strictly on that testimony.

Originally Posted by Rathji

Jenny McCarthy or whoever else they get medical advice from.

It wasn't even funny the first time.

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Comparing this to a nose job is offensive.

Yeah, it's an offensive form of hate. He should be thrown into prison.