Iraq war resister Kimberly Rivera ordered deported to U.S.

[Ben_in_Canada]

WOW, this was never going to end well.....

Kim met Mario as a teen at the Wal-Mart, where they both worked. They'd dreamed of a future with educations and real careers, but Kim became pregnant at 20, and another baby quickly followed. She and Mario lived with Kim's parents, whose dislike of Mario made the situation unbearable.

Kim and Mario got married, and she saw the military as her only option. Becoming a soldier would mean a steady income, benefits, a roof over their heads. "Mario wanted to go instead of me," she says, but both were overweight, and Kim thought she would be able to shed the necessary pounds more quickly.



Read more: Soldier Going AWOL - Soldier at War - Marie Claire

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Captain Crunch has done a good job of explaining the legal options available to her. she chose the easy, cowardly way out instead

I read his comments and I would say her actions put the Canadian govt in a very ackward situation. She had no right to do that and I have no sympathy for her in that regard.

Where I differ from CC is his view of the judgement she should recieve. To me it serves no purpose to put her in prison. No amount of time in prison is going to change her views of what she did and her disillusioned views of how her country fought. Give her a dishonourable discharge and send her on her way.

[PIMking]

So just curious if some of you want her out then why are Americans the #######s for wanting to close the boarder and kick out the illegals from Mexico?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Dion

I read his comments and I would say her actions put the Canadian govt in a very ackward situation. She had no right to do that and I have no sympathy for her in that regard.

Where I differ from CC is his view of the judgement she should recieve. To me it serves no purpose to put her in prison. No amount of time in prison is going to change her views of what she did and her disillusioned views of how her country fought. Give her a dishonourable discharge and send her on her way.

It servers a purpose in that she becomes a cautionary tail for anyone who thinks that they can just walk away from their service obligation.

What your saying is that if a drunk driver isn't going to change no matter how much prison time then prison should serve no purpose.

She abandoned her team mates, and she abandoned her oath of service.

It doesn't matter if prison changes her mind or not, Military Justice has to be different then civilian justice in that it not only punishes the person, but also acts as an example.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Dion

It's a shame the American military won't let it's soldiers quit. From what i've read she supported the war in the beginning and later began to question what was going on. She stopped carrying her rifle with her and was reprimanded and then secretly stopped carrying ammunition. It should have been clear to her superiors that she didn't want to be a part of the war anymore.

While I don't like the fact that she deserted and crossed the border into Canada, I have to wonder what other options she might have had. I can appreciate that people join with the best intentions and then later become disillusioned on what the mission is about. What I can't understand is why the military would choose to keep a soldier when they no longer believe in the cause.

I suspect that when she is deported the military will make an example out of her and send her to prison for an extended period of time.

She might have done those things but she never stepped forward and followed the required steps to legally change her situation.

And no I don't think it would ever be right to allow someone that knowingly signed a contract for a set period of time, that was then trained at a great deal of cost and effort and is required to be dependable to quit.

And while I get the whole they recruit from the poorer aspects of society, does it matter, its pretty apparent what the conditions of that service contract is and what's going to happen to them.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

It servers a purpose in that she becomes a cautionary tail for anyone who thinks that they can just walk away from their service obligation.

What your saying is that if a drunk driver isn't going to change no matter how much prison time then prison should serve no purpose.

In this case, how is going AWOL putting other people's lives in danger? She was on leave at the time and didn't want to do another tour.

She abandoned her team mates, and she abandoned her oath of service.

It doesn't matter if prison changes her mind or not, Military Justice has to be different then civilian justice in that it not only punishes the person, but also acts as an example.

Given the lies her govt told her, i'm not suprised she abandoned her oath of service.

I'm willing to bet that the threat of spending time in prison and who is going to care for her children is what keeps her from returning to the States willingly.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

She might have done those things but she never stepped forward and followed the required steps to legally change her situation.

And no I don't think it would ever be right to allow someone that knowingly signed a contract for a set period of time, that was then trained at a great deal of cost and effort and is required to be dependable to quit.

I would think the last person a soldier would want in his unit is a someone that doesn't want to be there. I wouldn't have the trust that said person would cover my back in a battle situation. He/she would be danger to the unit.

And while I get the whole they recruit from the poorer aspects of society, does it matter, its pretty apparent what the conditions of that service contract is and what's going to happen to them.

Having to repeat in training "kill kill and we will kill" over and over again I suspect can be a harsh reality for some. It must take some great psychological training to get someone to kill another human being.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Dion

In this case, how is going AWOL putting other people's lives in danger? She was on leave at the time and didn't want to do another tour.

My last response, I've already broken my self imposed exile and look like a bit of a hypocrite.

She was on leave and expected to return, to her unit, the fact that she didn't return disrupts her unit, brings in a person that might not know the role and reduces unit familiarity.

Originally Posted by Dion

Given the lies her govt told her, i'm not suprised she abandoned her oath of service.

I'm willing to bet that the threat of spending time in prison and who is going to care for her children is what keeps her from returning to the States willingly.

What lies? Beyond the fact that she didn't feel strong enough about her position to report them, or to go up the chain of command or to follow the procedures put in place for people like her.

Was she told that she wouldn't be assigned to a war zone? No. What lies was she told?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Dion

I would think the last person a soldier would want in his unit is a someone that doesn't want to be there. I wouldn't have the trust that said person would cover my back in a battle situation. He/she would be danger to the unit.

They probably don't want her back in her unit, and I bet her unit mates don't want her back, but she broke her contract, broke her oath and she needs to be held up as receiving the consequences of her action.

Military Justice isn't about Rehabilitation, it never has been, its about enforcing discipline, its about being held accountable, and its certainly about being held as an example of what happens when you break the rules.

Originally Posted by Dion

Having to repeat in training "kill kill and we will kill" over and over again I suspect can be a harsh reality for some. It must take some great psychological training to get someone to kill another human being.

So your walking into a recruiting center, you're watching the videos of guys carrying guns, you swearing an oath to defend your country. You sign the contract and get a cooling down period.

Is it a tough mental blow, not really, the tough mental blow is at the start of basic training when your stripped down and integrated into the military life style of unit over individual, a lesson that this moronic chick failed to learn among other lessons.

But anyone who goes into the military knows that they're going to be trained to kill. Everyone who joins the military knows that they could be dropped into the most soul killing and crushing situations that you could possibly ever see. That's why the good soldiers pretty much pray that war doesn't come, because we were trained to know right from the start that.

1) You are probably going to have to kill a person or a lot of people, and your probably going to have to look that person in the eye when you do it
2) That love or hate the people in your squad or unit that you have to do everything that you can to ensure that they go home to their families at the end no matter what the cost. Loyalty and trust is the most valuable commodity that you have
3) That you will sometimes have to do something horrible or make a horrible decision, but you still have the right to question the orders that you think are unlawful, un-neccessary or just plain illegal. That is one of the only rights that you have, but if your questioning said orders that you better have a good reason or explanation.

Chances are this woman probably should have been denied entry, but people can do a very good job of covering their personal weaknesses in the recruiting process. But at the end of the day this isn't a conscription. she volunteered for the gig and then she abandoned her oath, she broke her contract to the military, and she broke the trust of her comrades, and she didn't even try to explain herself or go through the processes that are set in place for people like her.

She could have gone the objector route, but she would have had to justify it, she could have gone the hardship route, but she didn't. She did the selfish thing, and now she's going to have to pay for that.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

My last response, I've already broken my self imposed exile and look like a bit of a hypocrite.

She was on leave and expected to return, to her unit, the fact that she didn't return disrupts her unit, brings in a person that might not know the role and reduces unit familiarity.

Hypocrite? Nonsense. I appreciate your responses

A disruption to me is alot different than putting someone elses life in danger. Besides if unit familiarity is a concern, why not delay the deployment until said person knows thier role?

What lies? Beyond the fact that she didn't feel strong enough about her position to report them, or to go up the chain of command or to follow the procedures put in place for people like her.

Was she told that she wouldn't be assigned to a war zone? No. What lies was she told?

Reading between the lines of a comment she made..

("By the time Kim had deployed, the fruitless search for weapons of mass destruction was long over, and her purpose, she believed, was to help the Iraqis rebuild and to deliver America's promise of freedom and democracy. Once there, however, Kim could see nothing but lies. "I felt like my government had betrayed me," she says.)

I suspect she didn't trust the American govt and the military.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by PIMking

So just curious if some of you want her out then why are Americans the #######s for wanting to close the boarder and kick out the illegals from Mexico?

well for one most Mexicans who enter the US legally aren't wanted to stand trial by their own government

but i don't think anyone is against the US securing their borders, but imagine what would happen to your economy if every illegal was shipped out tomorrow. they're doing jobs that no American citizen will take. there would be no one to pick the crops that they're doing now, food shortages around the southern states would be likely, and severe price hikes would follow

secure your border to prevent illegals from crossing, fine. rounding up the ones that are in the States who aren't doing any good (drug dealers, criminals, etc), definitely. but the ones that are there with their families just trying to make an honest living, what good does it do to ship them out? they're already there, they're already contributing to the economy, give them a track to citizenship and be done with it. Obama is going about this issue the right way IMO

[Dion]

"There is a strong, innate predisposition against killing," Hinzman says, "and the military breaks that down." In target practice, he recalls, we "started out with black circle targets. Then the circles grew shoulders and then the shoulders turned into torsos. Pretty soon they were human beings."

Hinzman can pinpoint the moment he realized he "made the wrong career decision."

"About five weeks into basic training, we were on our way to the chow hall shouting 'trained to kill, kill we will.' We were threatened with push-ups because we were not showing enough enthusiasm.

"I found myself hoarse yelling this and, when I looked around me, I saw that most of my colleagues were red in the face, but totally engrossed." Then he understood that the military was not just training him to kill, but "to kill with a smile on my face." He had to get out

Easier said than done.

Hinzman was a "good soldier," he recalls. "I couldn't get out of it, so I decided to make the most of it. Meanwhile, I was having this heavy internal debate about the morality of what I was doing."

At his conscientious objector hearing in Kandahar in April 2003, Hinzman was asked if he would use violence to protect himself. He responded he would not automatically turn the other cheek. His application for conscientious objector status was denied on the basis of that response.

"It happens all the time," says Steve Morse, a counselor with the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors. The law says you don't have to be a pacifist to be a conscientious objector. You have to oppose all war, but self-defense is a permissible answer, he explains. Morse says the military does not train its personnel in the rights of conscientious objectors, and it intimidates and stereotypes those who apply.

http://www.alternet.org/story/20533/..._of_misfortune

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

well for one most Mexicans who enter the US legally aren't wanted to stand trial by their own government

but i don't think anyone is against the US securing their borders, but imagine what would happen to your economy if every illegal was shipped out tomorrow. they're doing jobs that no American citizen will take. there would be no one to pick the crops that they're doing now, food shortages around the southern states would be likely, and severe price hikes would follow

secure your border to prevent illegals from crossing, fine. rounding up the ones that are in the States who aren't doing any good (drug dealers, criminals, etc), definitely. but the ones that are there with their families just trying to make an honest living, what good does it do to ship them out? they're already there, they're already contributing to the economy, give them a track to citizenship and be done with it. Obama is going about this issue the right way IMO

Well then what's the issue with the girl in your country?

I totally agree with you, our economy will crash if it wasn't for the Latino population that picks our crops. They simply will do jobs at a pay rate that Americans simply wont.

I wish we had a job sponsorship program here to get the people here documented.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Well then what's the issue with the girl in your country?

I totally agree with you, our economy will crash if it wasn't for the Latino population that picks our crops. They simply will do jobs at a pay rate that Americans simply wont.

I wish we had a job sponsorship program here to get the people here documented.

the issue with the girl is that she committed a serious criminal offense before crossing the border, it's not a case of someone down on their luck coming here trying to find work. apples and oranges