Edmonton teacher suspended for giving zero's

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

I've tried my best to give a clear meaning of what the "No Zero Policy" is. I'm glad that some of you at least are achknowleging that it isnt just giving students a "free pass" and that they are actually accountable for their work.

Zeros are assigning a mark for work that was never completed, thus giving an inaccurate assessment of students grades, AND allows students to squeeze by without doing work. MEV does not give students this luxery. MEV MAKES the students accountable for their work.

The general concensus i've received from the CP community on this is that a student's ability to meet deadlines is more important than anything else being learnt in schools. The issues most of you are having with the "No Zero Policy" has nothing to do with the students learning and everything to do with kids being able to meet deadlines.

"Look Mom! I finally learned how to isolate X in an algebraic equation"
"It doesn't matter what you learned, you didnt meet that deadline and that is far more important that what you learned"

The primary goal of schools is to LEARN! They have the rest of their lives to meet deadlines.

I would be ecstatic if one of my underacheiving kids came up to me and said "Here, I did this assignment on the weekend, i'm sorry its late". So much lip-service is paid from kids wanting a second chance, but so few actually come true on it.

I understand your point, however I think there's a larger context. And that is that schools have done a poor job of preparing kids for the next level and thanks to parents and institutions that coddle kids, it's getting worse.

You have probably seen both examples of the algebra kid above and the kid who is just irresponsible. You can probably quickly differentiate between the two. Why not just allow the teachers the discretion to determine which is which and hand out zero's to the ones who simply are too disorganized, immature, lazy or indifferent to meet a deadline?

By hardwiring a rule that says you can never give a zero, you truly don't have the ability to teach accountability to people who are a year or 3 away from finding out the hard way.

Maybe too philosophical for this thread, but if you look at the teaching profession, accountability, drive and excelling is suffocated from many inside the profession from its union. Your performance doesn't mean as much as your seniority, and awful teachers don't give way to good ones. Under this culture it must be near impossible to teach kids the exact opposite of what their unions are about.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I actually think it does have a lot of bearing on the real world.

If I don't get something done one day at work (for whatever reason) I don't automatically get fired and need to start looking for a new job. If something is late, i face the consequences of not having it done, could be financial by not getting a raise, or losing a bonus. It could mean overtime to make up for it or something along those lines.

Whatever I needed to do, still needs to get done and I can't just 'not do it' and the task just goes away.

It depends on what you do and what you neglected.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Your performance doesn't mean as much as your seniority, and awful teachers don't give way to good ones. Under this culture it must be near impossible to teach kids the exact opposite of what their unions are about.

I cannot agree more.

I am a young, new teacher at 26...I have terrific performance reviews, great relationships with the students and staff, however, being brand new without a continuous contract, I am out of work June 30th because of lack of funding. My summer is going to be full of uncertainty and searching for a new job.

What is most frustrating about this, is you see the teachers with that sexy continuous (tenured) contract who is chronically bad, and they have a job.

In the teaching world, there are teachers who are close minded and stubborn in their ways "I've taught like this for 35 years, and i'm not going to change regardless of the new policies introduced". These are the teachers anti-inclusion, anti-technology and anti-change....They aren't so much "teaching" as they are photocopier extrodinaires and distributors of worksheets.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

It depends on what you do and what you neglected.

If you work at a job where missing any deadline means you are automatically terminated, instead of having some of the other sanctions I listed happen first, I would be willing to wager you are in the extreme minority.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

I would take quality of work over punctuality of work ANY DAY.

[trublmaker]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I actually think it does have a lot of bearing on the real world.

If I don't get something done one day at work (for whatever reason) I don't automatically get fired and need to start looking for a new job. If something is late, i face the consequences of not having it done, could be financial by not getting a raise, or losing a bonus. It could mean overtime to make up for it or something along those lines.

Whatever I needed to do, still needs to get done and I can't just 'not do it' and the task just goes away.

I can use the same analogy as a contractor where if I am late on some contracts it can cost me delay penalties and possibly a bad reputation for further work. So you being late may not get you fired but what does it do above you where other people are expecting YOUR work to be done on time?
Sure you might not get fired but it might put others in a position to explain why the work isn't done as per schedule.

[OffsideSpecialist]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

I would take quality of work over punctuality of work ANY DAY.

Thanks for the clarification regarding the incomplete marks. I heard a radio interview with the teacher in question the other day and he made it sound like the incomplete marks would not count at all towards the grade (i.e. the average of the course was calculated for all mark other than incompletes). In other words, one could boost their average by simply not completing an assignment they weren't comfortable with, as all the other marks would constitute their grade and the incomplete would simply not factor into things at all. From your posts, it sounds like this is not the case at all, and from what you are saying I can agree with the way this incomplete marking system works and that "no-zero policy" is a bit of a misleading title for it. Again, thanks for helping to clear things up.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanStrandedInEDM

They aren't so much "teaching" as they are photocopier extrodinaires and distributors of worksheets.

"Guides to Inquiry"

[HHW]

Bump. As a high school math teacher, I've appreciated the relatively rational discussion, and would have put in my 2 cents earlier, but things are busy at this time of year

The idea behind the 'incomplete' grade is, as discussed, not without merit. It forces students to do the work before receiving credit. A major problem in implementing this, as is often the case with ideological solutions, is logistical.

For one, where do you draw the line on what constitutes non-sufficient evidence for credit? One assignment? One unit test? How will you get different teachers in the same school never mind the same system, to agree to a standard assessment plan? And, if you do not, you are leaving yourself wide open to grades being challenged by parents or students. We're not talking one test mark, we are talking withholding 5 credits which may prevent a student from graduating.

Moreover, when you withhold credit, how do you manage 'extending a course'? This may be possible in the lower grades where timelines are longer, but when you are in a semestered system, there are all sorts of complications. Second semester courses may require prerequisites, and a student being withheld credit will have to re-arrange their entire time table. Over the summer, teachers and students move on; how can you reasonably have a student come back and complete a course two months later?

At some point, the situation will come to a head. Either the student does the work by a practicality-imposed deadline, or he/she does not. The merit - and the failure - of the no-zero policy occurs here. Some students will, with their feet held over the fire, do the work. Others will still not. Can you then reasonably base their final mark only on work submitted? It would be blatantly unfair to other students, not to mention mathematically inaccurate, to state that this mark represents their understanding of the entire curriculum.

Thus, all avenues have been exhausted. The student does not pass the course. The end result is the same Ironically, Alberta Education demands a final mark. How do you calculate this mark? By entering 'reluctant zeroes'.


In essence, public education still works on the factory model. The end goal is to graduate as many students as possible, within a prescribed time period. For confirmation of this, look no further than the Alberta government's obsession with high school completion rates. Quality control is present (i.e. students must show understanding of a prescribed curriculum), and building individual relationships with students and parents is hugely important but in the end, we are still a system of mass education. A no zero policy is a good policy for 95% of your students, but as with any blanket policy, it will cause great difficulty with the remaining 5%.

[Cellular Device]

Originally Posted by HHW

The merit - and the failure - of the no-zero policy occurs here. Some students will, with their feet held over the fire, do the work. Others will still not. Can you then reasonably base their final mark only on work submitted? It would be blatantly unfair to other students, not to mention mathematically inaccurate, to state that this mark represents their understanding of the entire curriculum.

As a high school student, I thought I'd add my two cents here. I agree with what you have to say, I have peers who never do any work, and then there's students who do all the assignments and whatnot. So if one student does 50% of the work, while another does 100% of the work, there averages could possibly be close to the same number, but it wouldn't be accurate at all (and I'm pretty sure someone else did bring that up earlier in this thread).

Then when it comes to applying for universities, the kid with the higher mark (quite possibly the kid who only did half the work) would have a slightly better chance than the kid who did everything.

[Nammer403]

The teacher has been reinstated and students have now started a petition to protest the no-zero policy

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ed...548/story.html

A student at Ross Sheppard High School has started a petition to reinstate suspended teacher Lynden Dorval and toss out the no-zero policy that started a storm of controversy in Edmonton’s public schools.

“For about a week, everyone knew about Mr. Dorval’s suspension. I wanted to help,” he said. “And (the no-zero policy) gives those who do not want to do their work a way out. It is unfair to those who hand in their work on time.”

Hope he suceeds in the petition

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by trublmaker

I can use the same analogy as a contractor where if I am late on some contracts it can cost me delay penalties and possibly a bad reputation for further work. So you being late may not get you fired but what does it do above you where other people are expecting YOUR work to be done on time?
Sure you might not get fired but it might put others in a position to explain why the work isn't done as per schedule.

Exactly, which is what this policy seems to be doing.

Rather than them getting a zero and never thinking of it again, they need to do what everyone in the real world does when they are given a task at work, and that is finish it.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Exactly, which is what this policy seems to be doing.

Rather than them getting a zero and never thinking of it again, they need to do what everyone in the real world does when they are given a task at work, and that is finish it.

But the most important part is having an acutal final deadline where you fail the person for having incomplete work and not assigning zeros. If you want to teach real responsibilty incomplete work in the end has to result in repeating the course. And I don't believe that is happening.

At some point of not doing the work that was due you get fired.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Rathji

If you work at a job where missing any deadline means you are automatically terminated, instead of having some of the other sanctions I listed happen first, I would be willing to wager you are in the extreme minority.

I didn't say missing 'any' deadline. that is a word you have decided to add on your own.

I said that it depends on what you do.

The more I read this thread and think about the issue, the more asinine I think the non-zero rule is. And proof to me that many teachers and entire education systems are completely unplugged from society.

We live in a growingly lazy and unaccountable society. And some of the teachers on this thread prove it.

[HHW]

The CBE has released a stance on this issue. Many here will have children in the public system, so this may be of interest.

http://www.cbe.ab.ca/new/spotlights1...nt-success.asp

This communication is more a press release / guideline than a policy, and as such contains a fair bit of spin and jargon.

IMHO, it does touch on many of the points raised in this thread, and achieves a much better balance than the no-zeros policy of our northern neighbours.

[HHW]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

We live in a growingly lazy and unaccountable society. And some of the teachers on this thread prove it.

Care to elaborate?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Nammer403

The teacher has been reinstated and students have now started a petition to protest the no-zero policy

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ed...548/story.html

[/COLOR]

Hope he suceeds in the petition [/LEFT]

crazy doesn't he know what's good for him?

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by HHW

The CBE has released a stance on this issue. Many here will have children in the public system, so this may be of interest.

http://www.cbe.ab.ca/new/spotlights1...nt-success.asp

This communication is more a press release / guideline than a policy, and as such contains a fair bit of spin and jargon.

IMHO, it does touch on many of the points raised in this thread, and achieves a much better balance than the no-zeros policy of our northern neighbours.

Can students get a zero grade or do we have a policy against it?

Normally, the only answers to this question would be: Part 1 - Yes / No; Part 2 - Yes / No.

Instead, it is verbal diarrhea and motherhood statements. Basically, the ultimate non-answer. I give this release a MEV.

(they do grudgingly admit that marks can be deducted for lateness / incompletion, but not so far as to say "zero".)

[Boblobla]

Update: Teacher may lose job.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/edmonto...e-job-1.936044

An Edmonton teacher whose suspension stirred a national debate over whether students should be given zeros when they don't do their schoolwork now says he may lose his job permanently.
Lynden Dorval says he has received a letter from the principal of Ross Sheppard High School recommending his dismissal.
The 61-year-old says he'll fight the dismissal recommendation and continue to fight the no-zero policy.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well the good news is that unlike the students he was teaching, Mr. Dorval will have another job for himself in the future that doesn't involve making barely above minimum wage in a degrading work environment. McDonalds and Tim Hortons should set up job fairs for these kids so they can work their way up the chain for 20 years to eventually make $33,000 a year as store manager.