Atheism is a Religion (Split from Blessing Human Rights thread)

[photon]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

lol, this thread is atheisim vs. Christianity. Most of the atheistic views would be void when applied to other monothestic religions.

Atheist view: "I do not believe in god(s)."

That applies to pretty much every other monotheistic religion, by definition.

If you've got something meaningful to contribute, do so.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

WTF? Please feel free to substantiate this remark, I have a feeling it will be quite a side-splitter when I read it later today.

I'm not him, but I suspect what he means is that the discussion and topic points are mostly about Christianity and the Bible, not other forms of religion (therefore being more "athesists vs Christianity" than "atheists vs monotheists" or "atheists vs theists").

I'll leave it at that though as I'm not an internet mindreader and would prefer he give detail as I could be wrong.

[Thor]

I see it as Abrahamic religions, but yeah Christianity is the focus because most of us live in a nation where it dominates.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I am a bit late to the party but I see atheism as religion. I think that is because I would define religion as a structure of beliefs based around the existence of a deity, whether that be for or against it's existence.

Defining "religion" in such a way reduces "religion" to a nonsense. Everything, such as science, law, medicine, art, music, would become a religion.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Ridiculous. Lack of belief in something constitutes religion as much as not wearing an eye patch makes a person anti-pirate.

That is where we differ, I think not believing something is still a belief as a belief does not need to be in favor of something.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Defining "religion" in such a way reduces "religion" to a nonsense. Everything, such as science, law, medicine, art, music, would become a religion.

really? all of those are based around a belief about a deity? In fact none of those are based around such.

A belief about something does not have to be in favor of something. A belief can also be against something.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

That is where we differ, I think not believing something is still a belief as a belief does not need to be in favor of something.

No. Atheism is not a doctrine like any of the religions. Atheism lacks any characteristic a religion has.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a system...period. It does not provide a group of beliefs or guidance of any kind.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

really? all of those are based around a belief about a deity? In fact none of those are based around such.

A belief about something does not have to be in favor of something. A belief can also be against something.

Atheists believe that their beleif is a science, hence they come up with things like that.

Just a disclaimer I should've added in my first short post:

I have nothing against atheists or other sorts of theists. I do not believe a lack of beleif is what decides anything.

Yet atheists never understand that.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by Cheese

No. Atheism is not a doctrine like any of the religions. Atheism lacks any characteristic a religion has.
Atheism is the lack of belief in a system...period. It does not provide a group of beliefs or guidance of any kind.

Then why are atheists obligated (or seem to be) to tell you that you are wrong in believing? much like Christians thinking one will goto hell with a lack of beleif in christ.

[RougeUnderoos]

I don't believe in Bigfoot and I need a name for this religion. Any suggestions?

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't believe in Bigfoot and I need a name for this religion. Any suggestions?

I believe in bigfoot, can I be a religion?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Then why are atheists obligated (or seem to be) to tell you that you are wrong in believing? much like Christians thinking one will goto hell with a lack of beleif in christ.

well if you must know...
its because the Christians are in our face telling us that we must believe!
From door knockers to TV shows to politicians. The burden of proof is "on the believer". Until you or any other theist provides said proof we have every right to demand the same, otherwise it is simply a lie.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well if you must know...
its because the Christians are in our face telling us that we must believe!
From door knockers to TV shows to politicians. The burden of proof is "on the believer". Until you or any other theist provides said proof we have every right to demand the same, otherwise it is simply a lie.

But I am not a Christian, neither are all theists. I never tell you that you are wrong in not beleiving and I want the same. Other wise you are the same as the door knockers.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Then why are atheists obligated (or seem to be) to tell you that you are wrong in believing? much like Christians thinking one will goto hell with a lack of beleif in christ.

Atheists aren't obligated to. Neither are Christians (I think). There is nothing in the doctorine of Christianity, to my knowledge, that preaches that "thou must warn thy neighbour that they will be sentenced for purgatory at best if they don't believe".

Atheists that thrust themselves on others are just pushy people. The same way Christians that approach me to convince me to join them are pushy people.

[photon]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Atheists believe that their beleif is a science, hence they come up with things like that.

Evidence? Science is about theories substantiated by evidence, a belief is just the state of holding a premise to be true. Beliefs can be informed by science, but saying "their belief is a science" doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

I have nothing against atheists or other sorts of theists. I do not believe a lack of beleif is what decides anything.

Yet atheists never understand that.

Understand what? "lack of beleif is what decides anything".. lack of belief in a god or gods decides if you are an atheist or not. That's the definition of the word.

Lack of belief in a god can help to form further conclusions, but that's true of any belief. Lack of belief in Wotan (all Christians being defacto atheists with respect to Wotan) helps Christians form conclusions about their god and religion.

Was kirant right about what you meant?

[photon]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Then why are atheists obligated (or seem to be) to tell you that you are wrong in believing? much like Christians thinking one will goto hell with a lack of beleif in christ.

Humans are social animals, the marketplace of ideas where they're exchanged, critiqued, etc is a basic part of what makes us us. So not sure why it would be shocking that people would want to share their thoughts with each other.

If they didn't there wouldn't be any thoughts to begin with! You have an opinion about religion and atheists and everything, but without an exchange of ideas about those things you wouldn't have those opinions to begin with.

This forum for example is a discussion forum where people freely engage in topics of discussion, so an atheist or theist sharing their beliefs with respect to each other's beliefs isn't being pushy, it's just a discussion. EDIT: And telling someone they're wrong isn't being pushy either, as long as it's not unsolicited and done in the proper context and substantiated with reasons. This too should be self evident; if no one could ever tell someone else they thought they were wrong, well that's just nonsense.

But yes there are pushy people that are more aggressive about sharing their beliefs, this happens regardless of the belief, because some people are more pushy than others for whatever reason.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Atheists believe that their beleif is a science, hence they come up with things like that.

Just a disclaimer I should've added in my first short post:

I have nothing against atheists or other sorts of theists. I do not believe a lack of beleif is what decides anything.

Yet atheists never understand that.

so you understand what an atheist is thinking better than an atheist? Now that makes sense. Chances are an atheist understands what they believe and why better than someone who isn't one.

[HELPNEEDED]

Originally Posted by photon

Evidence? Science is about theories substantiated by evidence, a belief is just the state of holding a premise to be true. Beliefs can be informed by science, but saying "their belief is a science" doesn't make any sense.



Understand what? "lack of beleif is what decides anything".. lack of belief in a god or gods decides if you are an atheist or not. That's the definition of the word.

Lack of belief in a god can help to form further conclusions, but that's true of any belief. Lack of belief in Wotan (all Christians being defacto atheists with respect to Wotan) helps Christians form conclusions about their god and religion.

Was kirant right about what you meant?

Quote taken absoultley out of context. I did not say it is a science, rather considered a science by the practioners. Athiests claim, however true, due to lack of empirical evidence that god does not exist thus protraying their belief system to be meritted by science.

kirant is correct in my thoughts, although he is incorrect in that Christianity is a missionary religion. They are dutied to spread the message even so to the degree where my beleifs will send me to hell. In a similar manner I find ahtiests telling me i'm wrong for simply having a belief in god even though I yield no information in my methods of practice.

As humans we must be ever inquisitive, we must always endevour to question even what is considered unquestionable. Just because I believe in god does not say I do not seek other answers. I firmly believe in gods aswell as the guiding laws of physics, I say this as a real scientist.

But I am not here to say athiests are incorrect or wrong in their beliefs as i truley feel that everyone is free to practice whatever they want including and no limited to satanisim (even though I do not believe in the existance of a "anti-god").

[photon]

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Quote taken absoultley out of context. I did not say it is a science, rather considered a science by the practioners.

And I asked for evidence of this. The entire thing didn't make sense so I was trying to get evidence, or clarify.

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

Athiests claim, however true, due to lack of empirical evidence that god does not exist thus protraying their belief system to be meritted by science.

First atheism isn't a belief system, just like theism isn't a belief system. It's either the lack of belief, or in some cases a single belief in the nonexistence of an entity.

An atheist may evaluate the claim based on logic/reason, which is also what science is based on, or may use science to inform their decision. I don't see what's wrong with that, since that's been demonstrated as the best way of knowing that's available. Other ways of knowing haven't been demonstrated as meaningful, and anyone claiming otherwise is employing some level of cognitive dissonance since decisions in every other area of every individual's life are made based on scientific principles.

The correctness or accuracy of a claim must be evaluated by some standard, reason, empirical evidence, etc provides that standard. Otherwise there's no way to differentiate between a true belief and a false one.

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

In a similar manner I find ahtiests telling me i'm wrong for simply having a belief in god even though I yield no information in my methods of practice.

Well we live in a society where the predominant religion is Christianity, so it would make sense that that would be a starting point.

As I said before, before discussing god with anyone it's important to first get the definition of god to be discussed.

So this really isn't some kind of flaw in atheism, it's just expedience in discussion and convenience when using advertising or whatnot. Easily cleared up in a discussion (if the other party doesn't ask) by stating up front "by the way what you have in mind of my ideas of god aren't really my ideas of god, so maybe we should establish that first"

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

As humans we must be ever inquisitive, we must always endevour to question even what is considered unquestionable. Just because I believe in god does not say I do not seek other answers. I firmly believe in gods aswell as the guiding laws of physics, I say this as a real scientist.

Of course, anyone familiar with science knows all knowledge is provisional.

Originally Posted by HELPNEEDED

But I am not here to say athiests are incorrect or wrong in their beliefs as i truley feel that everyone is free to practice whatever they want including and no limited to satanisim (even though I do not believe in the existance of a "anti-god").

No one ever said that people shouldn't be free to practice their beliefs (with some constraints), but people are also free to question and test and disagree with those beliefs. You are free to believe in a flat earth if you like, I'm free to disagree with you.

[Itse]

A few pointers;

Few atheists in Finland (and I think this goes for most of Europe) give a toss about Dawkins or any other antitheistic spokesman. I would not even know who would be the guy they'd interview for an "atheist" opinion here. We don't have bookstores filled with books about religion written by atheists. There are no (notable) public speakers, no popular books and no real debate outside of certain practical issues. If you think what you see on TV (Dawkins apparently among others) is somehow "real" or representative of atheists, maybe you should go out more.

Also, to claim that atheists like talking religion is like saying all people who don't care about hockey talk about it all the time. Most just don't care and wish for the discussion to move on.

And there is no quarantee that an atheist has a specifically scientific world view. A lot of people frankly just don't care much about how the world works, and know very little about it. While there is a correlation between education and atheism, there are plenty of really ignorant atheists with odd conceptions of how the world works.

Atheism is not a belief structure, it's a lack of a specific belief. You might at best call it a belief, but that still does not come even close to making it a "religion".

And btw, religion could be actually be called a western/mid-eastern concept that doesn't really match with how people define worldviews and beliefs in large parts of Asia (especially). Which is why calling Buddhism a religion is sort of like calling samurais aristocrats. Not really the same.

An atheist can also believe in gnomes, crystal healing, that vitamins are useful if you spread them on your skin or that soap operas are real. Not very scientific any of that.

Atheism is not about anything other than not being a theist. The fact that it correlates with some things does not make those things part of atheism.

The one really infuriating thing about religions for me is their constant demand that everything in the world be defined on their terms and based on how it relates to their particular worldview. The really frustrating religious people to talk with are those who refuse or are unable to see the world in any other way.