The Misandry Bubble

[Five-hole]

I have to admit to being extremely tired of the trope, seen most commonly in advertising and bad TV, of the idiot, bumbling, incompetent yet overconfident male screwing things up and his finger-wagging wife knowing better all along.

But that's hardly inequality, just a pet peeve.

Until the opportunity cost of having children is borne equally between both sexes, any inequality between the two will probably continue to favor males. While those child support payment horror stories sure sound bad, imagine how many thousands of pages you'd need to document every case of a woman being left on her own with children and having to give up anything she's ever wanted -- career, education, etc. -- to live in near-poverty to support them.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

I forgot to add, where did you get that number for the percentage of women that commit spousal killings? That seems to be completely incorrect in Canada.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-224-...estdm2-eng.htm



In the United States, however, it's closer to half, or at least was, but it's an important qualification.

http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dalywilson/WhoKills.pdf



Again, the misrepresentation of statistics is definitely not the way to go about raising awareness for this issue (and don't get me wrong, I do believe it is an issue; the statistics bear it out to one degree or another, though they are often times slightly misleading when it comes to severity and the under-reporting of the crimes by both genders).

Well, as I said, I'm new to this and I am not sure your facts are clear either, but I'll be happy to bring in some others who can assist in answering these questions. I've been mostly doing graphic work so far!

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by kirant

That depends on what the publication was looking at. Was it looking at a difference between alleged and committed assaults on women? Or was it trying to use it to make a wide statement on society? Papers are extremely narrowly focused (my supervisor keeps rejecting mine on the basis that it's not specific enough...my title is entering 3 lines of text and it's still apparently generic in topic) and one looking at that sort of difference can constitute a publication on its own.

Alternatively, was it challenging a historical piece? Was it challenging an old set of data saying "our results say different"? There are a lot of ways to spin that information and not all of them are shoving on-male abuse under the rug.

The key thing to look at is the discussion and abstract sections...how is it using this information to back up a claim? What is it asserting with the data? A study between the difference of this and women-on-men violence via poll could easily be its own paper (and I've met professors who will do such a thing just to get more grant money...not all, but I've met some who would do it).

There's too little data for me to make a good judgement on whether it was good to request it to not be produced.

Yes, I didn't give enough and I've been up all night working on stuff. I'm exhausted. But from what I was told it was not a competent study and it was pulled because of the unbalanced questioning.

[troutman]

Family violence in Canada – A statistical profile

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-224-...estdm2-eng.htm

Women continue to be more likely than men to be victims of spousal homicide. In 2009, the rate of spousal homicide against women was about three times higher than that for men.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-224-...artie1-eng.htm

Similar to previous GSS victimization cycles, females continued to report more serious forms of spousal violence than males. For example, in 2009, females who reported spousal violence were about three times more likely than males (34% versus 10% 3 ) to report that they had been sexually assaulted, beaten, choked or threatened with a gun or a knife by their partner or ex-partner in the previous 5 years (Chart 1.2).

Females were three times more likely than males to state that they had obtained a restraining order against their spouse or ex-spouse (15% versus 5%).

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

There is no attempt to vilify at all. My attempt is to squash the "Men are scum and it's okay to ignore them" mentality. The mentality that the Men are abusive and the women need protecting more because they do not abuse or rarely do. I've been hearing it's a tough road to get people to understand and agree, but I'm for it. Men and women are both equally capable of harm and the percentages are pretty close to the same but the treatment sure isn't. My response above was to the comment that men are more abusive or "aggressive". This is untrue and I posted info from the website (that I need to fix up). I am NOT a web guy so it's going to take me some time.

Now this is also second hand as I was not present during this but the Family of Men stopped a university from publishing a paper. There was a questionnaire to the study and the questionnaire was different for each sex. The woman's questionnaire asked if the husband ever assaulted or beat her. The man's questionnaire was have you ever beaten you girl friend or wife? Not a sensible balanced question like "Have you been assaulted by your girl friend or wife?". I can't remember the rest of it but that stuck with me. There is so much more out there that is sickens me.

Here is something going on in Delaware

Press Release: July 12, 2012 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

A lawsuit has been filed against Delaware State Police and several other Delaware agencies and four individual officers for failing to arrest individuals who made proven false police reports, failure to conduct investigations prior to making arrests, and falsely entering the Plaintiff into DELJIS resulting in his false arrest and incarceration in a Delaware State Prison the day after he conducted a demonstration outside Kent County Family Court. The lawsuit was filed by Gordon Smith, in Superior Court seeking damages for numerous torts and civil rights violations. Had Mr. Smith not been able to prove his innocence, in the face of false reports by his ex-wife he faced a year in prison on each of the false charges. Despite the fact that in one case he was able to prove that he was miles away when the ex-wife, her sister and her boyfriend told Delaware State Police that he was at her home, the Delaware State Police refused to arrest the individuals that made the false report that resulted in his arrest. In another case he was at Family Court, which is under video surveillance when his ex-wife alleged that he made a call to her in violation of an ex-parte protection order. The police officer that arrested him admitted that he saw Mr. Smith in the court at the time he was alleged to have been making the phone call but refused to review the video tape to confirm that he was not on a phone at that time. Cell phones and other electronic devices are not allowed in Delaware Family Courthouses. In another instance the ex-wife alleged that he called and text messaged numerous times, when he had not and he was charged with harassment by phone with the domestic violence modifier because he was a divorced spouse. The Delaware State Police failed to look at the complainant's phone records which would have shown her statement was another false report. His ex-wife had him falsely arrested twice in one day and three times in that one week period. According to Mr. Smith the pendulum on domestic violence has swung from thirty years ago when it was ignored as a private matter, where abused women were not protected to the same extent that non related individuals would be if victimized to a point now that men are not given the same due process or equal protection when accused of domestic related crimes in comparison to those accused of any other crimes that are not considered domestic. Smith says “in the instances where I was arrested the police didn't even contact me to see if I could prove that I was innocent, in other instances when my ex-wife made reports to police and they did investigate I was not arrested”. He said that “failure of the Delaware State Police to enforce Delaware law on filing false police reports encouraged his ex-wife to continue to file false police reports” in an effort to have him incarcerated because he had moved on in his personal life and was involved with another woman. Men in Delaware are subject to arrest at any time when they haven't committed any crime. Smith stated, "You can get up and go to work and not know there is a warrant for your arrest on some made up allegation and be in prison that night for something that you didn't do. No evidence is required, all a woman has to do is say that you, a current or former spouse or domestic partner, did something and the State Police will run out and get a rubber stamp warrant from the JP Court. You have to prove that you're innocent instead of them having anything more concrete than verbal allegations that you committed a crime." For Mr. Smith this has resulted in five arrests that were nolle prossed but show on background checks preventing him from being employed in his field, despite no convictions and resulting in his being financially crippled. In Delaware, unlike neighboring Pennsylvania, it is not against the law for employers to consider arrest that did not result in conviction to make adverse employment decisions.

Mr. Smith is the co-founder and Executive Director of a family law reform and advocacy organization and the Delaware State Coordinator for an organization that lobbies for changes in Federal and State laws to address the proliferation of false allegations of domestic abuse and for enforcement of laws on filing false police reports.

Smith said that he is looking for other men in Delaware who have been the victim of proven false police reports of domestic violence or violations of PFAs and would consider being part of a class action lawsuit, in Federal District Court. They can contact him at gordonsmith67@gmail.com

I think a lot of us have heard about this exact same issue.
In the middle of a divorce/custody battle the woman throws out an acusation that is absolute garbage against the man. The man is now left trying to prove the false acusation (cause he is assumed guilty on her word over his) and it costs him thousands of dollars and months if not years to get overruled. The worst part is the woman tends to have no punishment for this lie. I have seen this happen twice to family members.

[Regorium]

Yeah, the violence aspect of male-female relations to me is very uninteresting. In western society, we don't tolerate violence in any way regardless of whether the offender is a man or a woman. The fact that men are more likely to commit violence is unfortunate, but there are no systematic failures that cause this.

However, reading stories about divorce law, alimony/paternity cases, workplace cases, stuff like a man on a plane is assumed to be a pedophile, or just general society overvaluing the contributions of women is always extremely interesting.

[GGG]

The worst case is abortion law. If a man wants to raise the child and the women wants to abort the child. The baby is killed. No questions asked.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Yeah, the violence aspect of male-female relations to me is very uninteresting. In western society, we don't tolerate violence in any way regardless of whether the offender is a man or a woman. The fact that men are more likely to commit violence is unfortunate, but there are no systematic failures that cause this.

However, reading stories about divorce law, alimony/paternity cases, workplace cases, stuff like a man on a plane is assumed to be a pedophile, or just general society overvaluing the contributions of women is always extremely interesting.

Finally going to bed and you go and post this ignorance - "The fact that men are more likely to commit violence is unfortunate"

http://j.mp/Nmng3u

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Yeah, the violence aspect of male-female relations to me is very uninteresting. In western society, we don't tolerate violence in any way regardless of whether the offender is a man or a woman. The fact that men are more likely to commit violence is unfortunate, but there are no systematic failures that cause this.

However, reading stories about divorce law, alimony/paternity cases, workplace cases, stuff like a man on a plane is assumed to be a pedophile, or just general society overvaluing the contributions of women is always extremely interesting.

That story I have heard of before and it would be such an insult to have that happen to you.

"I'm sorry sir as a male there is a chance you are a pedi you will have to move away from the child."

Just imagine this:

"I'm sorry sir as a Muslim there is a chance you are a terrorist you will have to move away from the cockpit."

I wrote a letter to BA a few months back telling them that their policy is why I chose another airline to Europe this summer.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Finally going to bed and you go and post this ignorance - "The fact that men are more likely to commit violence is unfortunate"

http://j.mp/Nmng3u

Holy crap there's this thing called context. You might want to look at what I'm trying to say rather than just picking one line out.

Whatever you want to call it - damaging violence, fatal violence, more extreme violence, reported violence. Who cares. The point is that violence is not accepted in our society, whether it comes from a man or a woman.

Most stats will say that men commit violence at higher rates - whether that's because anytime a man commits violence, it's far more damaging than when a woman does it, or just other factors, the point is it DOESN'T MATTER. It's ALL WRONG.

Whereas in divorce law, there are women out there that think that they should take the guy for everything that they've got and create lies and deception in order to do that - all the while thinking that what they're doing is RIGHT and in fact, there are a lot of cases where even the courts believe that this is right. I personally believe that this is a far more interesting point of discussion than trying to pull up meaningless stats like 8 men and 12 women were assaulted, when it basically means 20 people were assaulted.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Holy crap there's this thing called context. You might want to look at what I'm trying to say rather than just picking one line out.

Whatever you want to call it - damaging violence, fatal violence, more extreme violence, reported violence. Who cares. The point is that violence is not accepted in our society, whether it comes from a man or a woman.

But you said more men do it. - "The fact that men are more likely to commit violence is unfortunate"

Most stats will say that men commit violence at higher rates - whether that's because anytime a man commits violence, it's far more damaging than when a woman does it, or just other factors, the point is it DOESN'T MATTER. It's ALL WRONG.

Whereas in divorce law, there are women out there that think that they should take the guy for everything that they've got and create lies and deception in order to do that - all the while thinking that what they're doing is RIGHT and in fact, there are a lot of cases where even the courts believe that this is right. I personally believe that this is a far more interesting point of discussion than trying to pull up meaningless stats like 8 men and 12 women were assaulted, when it basically means 20 people were assaulted.

Well, from everything I posted only one sentence is being discussed so what's the problem.

It's also the only thing I disagreed with in your post. I'm asking for equal funding for help in my original post.

"I've been assisting a Mens Rights Group now for 3 months and I am shocked at what is considered normal and okay. 3 months = I am not an expert at all but the FACT that women shelters receive $500 million from the government (Tax Payments) per year and Men receive $0 and the only male shelter in Canada is here in Calgary and it is an unfunded shelter, as well, it might close down, is horrifying. Do you care about this?"

Why is this such a big deal to ask for equal funding? Why wouldn't society what to help a man? Knowing this information, how many people here are willing to help with their time or financial contribution? Who here would sign a petition to demand that the Gov't give money to Men for Shelters and help as well?

[Tinordi]

The dark underlying sexism is probably the ugliest part of the CP community.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Whereas in divorce law, there are women out there that think that they should take the guy for everything that they've got and create lies and deception in order to do that - all the while thinking that what they're doing is RIGHT and in fact, there are a lot of cases where even the courts believe that this is right. I personally believe that this is a far more interesting point of discussion than trying to pull up meaningless stats like 8 men and 12 women were assaulted, when it basically means 20 people were assaulted.

You think it is meaningless that women are THREE TIMES more likely to be murdered or suffer serious spousal violence, than men? All violence is wrong, but we have to be concerned that women are more at risk.

As a former divorce lawyer, I can also say that it is BS that women are "taking the guy for everything". The law normally only entitles spouses to half the matrimonial property, and child/spousal support is fairly based on income levels, in tables that are consistently applied. You may have heard a few anecdotes, but I have heard thousands more. There are far more deadbeat men in the system, than women that "create lies". When it is proved that women were lying, they are punished.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest

Well, from everything I posted only one sentence is being discussed so what's the problem.

It's also the only thing I disagreed with in your post. I'm asking for equal funding for help in my original post.

"I've been assisting a Mens Rights Group now for 3 months and I am shocked at what is considered normal and okay. 3 months = I am not an expert at all but the FACT that women shelters receive $500 million from the government (Tax Payments) per year and Men receive $0 and the only male shelter in Canada is here in Calgary and it is an unfunded shelter, as well, it might close down, is horrifying. Do you care about this?"

Why is this such a big deal to ask for equal funding? Why wouldn't society what to help a man? Knowing this information, how many people here are willing to help with their time or financial contribution? Who here would sign a petition to demand that the Gov't give money to Men for Shelters and help as well?

Men's shelters will never get equal funding in Canada, and nor should they, so long as women get murdered in domestic disputes at three times the rate men do.

I think it's wrong men's shelters get no funding (apparently women's shelters are supposed to handle some of the burden, though I doubt they do much in practice), but I also wonder if the type of treatment women get in these situations is the same as what men need. How many men actually go to these shelters? Are there statistics on this? Perhaps a different type of treatment would be more effective?

The statistics and studies done on this are so rudimentary that it's ridiculous that you've already concluded men's shelters deserve the exact same funding as women's. The fact that you don't take into account the severity of different types of domestic violence, and only look at the rate of domestic violence unqualified, betrays an oversimplified way of looking at this.

[Boshi]

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by troutman

You think it is meaningless that women are THREE TIMES more likely to be murdered or suffer serious spousal violence, than men? All violence is wrong, but we have to be concerned that women are more at risk.

As a former divorce lawyer, I can also say that is is BS that women are "taking the guy for everything". The law normally only entitles spouses to half the matrimonial property, and child/spousal support is fairly based on income levels, in tables that are consistently applied. You may have hear a few anecdotes, but I have heard thousands more. There are far more deadbeat men in the system, than women that "create lies". When it is proved that women were lying, they are punished.

While child support, and alimony can seriously hamper a man's livelihood, a child and being a full time mom seriously hamper a woman's livelihood. In those cases the fairest divide of wealth seems unfair from the man's POV.


Troutman, is it true that a woman may demand full support from multiple men for one child if they all cared for the child at some point?


Also, can a mom ask for back pay if an agreement was made previously for less than the provincial guidelines yet the full amount of the agreement was paid?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by GGG

The worst case is abortion law. If a man wants to raise the child and the women wants to abort the child. The baby is killed. No questions asked.

I'm 100% ok with that. It's her body, so carrying the baby to term or not should be her choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Where I have a problem is the reverse scenario. What if the father wants to abort but the mother doesn't?

[Boshi]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm 100% ok with that. It's her body, so carrying the baby to term or not should be her choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Where I have a problem is the reverse scenario. What if the father wants to abort but the mother doesn't?

Well using your train of thought doesn't the exact same thing apply? It's her body, right?

[jamoro]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm 100% ok with that. It's her body, so carrying the baby to term or not should be her choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Where I have a problem is the reverse scenario. What if the father wants to abort but the mother doesn't?

Well next time he should keep his d*** in his pants. It was his choice to make the baby

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm 100% ok with that. It's her body, so carrying the baby to term or not should be her choice. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Where I have a problem is the reverse scenario. What if the father wants to abort but the mother doesn't?

Unfortunately, the man does not have the final say. Biology made sure of that. Having said that, it's a simple scenario to avoid