Divide deepens between Quebec and rest of Canada

[OffsideSpecialist]

From what I have been seeing, I really don't think there's an appetite in Quebec to separate at the moment. Most seem to know that they have it very well. However, this election will be very telling about the future of the province, and as everyone knows, Quebecers change their politics like they change their socks.

Quite frankly, I think Marois is a threat, but I have heard there are many folks in Quebec quite upset with some of her suggestions (i.e. forcing students with French parents to go to french college). She also seems more concerned with running a campaign against Stephen Harper than against her opponents. In the end, I can't see the PQ winning the election. I really like what I have heard from Legault, particularly regarding the work ethic and sense of entitlement that is prevalent among the youth of that province.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by zamler

Not true at all. Alberta does not demand (that is a mild term to describe Quebec) special treatment, a special clause in the constitution, special recognition. In fact if you really think about it, the people of Alberta are extremely forgiving.

Well, almost everyone, including Prime Minister Harper and Parliament, recognizes the existence of a Quebecois nation. I don't think that the expectation of such recognition by people in Quebec was unreasonable.

Originally Posted by zamler

Imagine the outcry in Quebec if the federal government had fleeced them and outright screwed them over like Alberta was.

I imagine that the outcry would be very similar to the outcry, and political grudges, in Alberta in the wake of the National Energy Program.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by zamler

So what is your point exactly.

Well, here's your initial quote...

Quebec is bluffing, everyone knows it. The only reason this has not occurred is so far no elected leader wants to be at the helm when it happens. To be clear, I am not advocating that Quebec be given the heave ho.

No need to go off the deep end, no one is saying that.

Well, I just showed you a federally elected leader was more than willing to be at the helm when seperation was less than 1% from happening. Seperation isn't happening because the support isn't there, period. People can think all they want that Quebec is full of non-stop hating of english and the rest of Canada, but that simply isn't true. 95 was the perfect storm and seperation still didn't happen. It's never going to.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Well, almost everyone, including Prime Minister Harper and Parliament, recognizes the existence of a Quebecois nation.

And did so for his own political gain, not because it was the right thing to do.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by zamler

And did so for his own political gain, not because it was the right thing to do.

How do you know that? And why are those two potential motives mutually exclusive?

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Makarov

How do you know that?

Common frickin sense. We are all supposed to be equal, Canadians. Not unique inside of Canada worthy of special recognition in the eyes of the law.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by zamler

Common frickin sense. We are all supposed to be equal, Canadians. Not unique inside of Canada worthy of special recognition in the eyes of the law.

The Indian Act, and, since 1982, our Constitution, already recognize the special status of First Nations and aboriginal persons in Canada.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The Atlantic Provinces have absolutely nothing to gain and a huge amount to lose from separation from Canada. Newfoundland is rolling in off-shore revenue now, but they're only a decade removed from ~20% unemployment and complete dependence on transfer payments from Ottawa to fund their healthcare and education systems. I'm sure damn near every voter in the province remembers those days. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and (especially) PEI would not be able to sustain existing levels of government services if they were to leave Canada.

Newfoundland isn't that long in Canada as a whole. There is still lingering resentment there for they way the have been treated. Right or wrong, most blame Canada for the collapse of the cod fisheries in the Grand Banks. I don't think it unreasonable that if Newfoundland was cut off geographically from Canada they would move towards independence.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The Indian Act, and, since 1982, our Constitution, already recognize the special status of First Nations and aboriginal persons in Canada.

Yes and who wouldn't want to aspire to the greatness seen by most modern aboriginals resulting from that decision!

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

War with France, a NATO ally? How old are you, 15?

So a NATO ally is going to alliance with a province that is trying to seperate from another NATO ally. What are you, 8?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Yes and who wouldn't want to aspire to the greatness seen by most modern aboriginals resulting from that decision!

Touché, although such problems may be related to the specific framework set out by The Indian Act rather than just the idea of constitutional Indian status or the enshrinement of aboriginal rights in The Constitution Act, 1982.

[MyFlamesFirst]

Originally Posted by Iginla

It will be one of the happiest days of my life when Quebec is kicked out. They contribute absolutely nothing to Canada. All they do is take, take, and take some more.

I think Quebec as a nation would win more medals in the summer Olympics then all of Canada.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

So a NATO ally is going to alliance with a province that is trying to seperate from another NATO ally. What are you, 8?

I was merely responding to the far-fetched situation you concocted in this post:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...6&postcount=76

Rerun said that Quebec might strike some kind of deal to join France. You replied that if that were to happen, Canada should declare war on France-Quebec. Your post showed a tremendously immature comprehension of global politics.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by MyFlamesFirst

I think Quebec as a nation would win more medals in the summer Olympics then all of Canada.

See if they separate, there's the solution to Quebec's national debt. Just melt down all the gold from those medals, and sell it for a profit!

[Kjesse]

I find it interesting that many comments about separation, in this thread and in others, assume that a Quebec nation would become responsible for a share of the Government of Canada's debt, almost like its automatic. In fact that issue would become a huge mess.

That a Quebec nation assumes a proportionate share of debt is at best a 50/50 proposition, and probably much lower. It wouldn't do so voluntarily.

Assume, for example, the complete break up of Canada, just hypothetically. The most leverage the Government of Canada would have (beyond bringing soldiers into the mix, which one would think would not be in play) is that it still owns the infrastructure and lands it owned before secession. There is no mechanism to transfer the debt of the Government of Canada to any particular subsequent government. Even federal ownership of assets would be in issue in the event of secession.

I could see that financial institutions and world economies could persuade a new nation to take on a proportionate share of debt in exchange for assets, but I could also see a situation where a new nation says "screw you" to the old debt. Sure, they'd have short term issues in getting financing for new infrastructure, but their taxing power would mean eventually they'd become a regular participant in world finance.

Were Quebec to separate, I could see a situation where the Government of Canada is voluntarily bankrupted by the other provinces. It would be turmoil, but its not outside the realm of possibility.

[Hans Landa]

Originally Posted by Iginla

It will be one of the happiest days of my life when Quebec is kicked out. They contribute absolutely nothing to Canada. All they do is take, take, and take some more.

Hmm.

So people who contribute nothing to Canada and take, take, take (advantage of, perhaps?) from Canada's generosity should be kicked out?

I agree (not in the case of Quebec because I don't believe they contribute nothing), but...

I love how one can get away with saying that, about the people of distinct culture who played a major role in the founding of this country, but if you applied that same logic to any non-anglophone or non-francophone immigrant culture that abuses the generosity of Canada it would be an immediate lifetime ban for racist comments.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Hans Landa

Hmm.

So people who contribute nothing to Canada and take, take, take (advantage of, perhaps?) from Canada's generosity should be kicked out?

I agree (not in the case of Quebec because I don't believe they contribute nothing), but...

I love how one can get away with saying that, about the people of distinct culture who played a major role in the founding of this country, but if you applied that same logic to any non-anglophone or non-francophone immigrant culture that abuses the generosity of Canada it would be an immediate lifetime ban for racist comments.

Do you think if you say it a third time, someone will bite?

Whoops. I guess I just did.

What are you talking about?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Hans Landa

Hmm.

So people who contribute nothing to Canada and take, take, take (advantage of, perhaps?) from Canada's generosity should be kicked out?

I agree (not in the case of Quebec because I don't believe they contribute nothing), but...

I love how one can get away with saying that, about the people of distinct culture who played a major role in the founding of this country, but if you applied that same logic to any non-anglophone or non-francophone immigrant culture that abuses the generosity of Canada it would be an immediate lifetime ban for racist comments.

I presume that Iginla was referring to the political unit of Quebec, and not to an identifiable group such as francophones. Its still a profoundly stupid and incorrect thing to say, and as such, is offensive, but it is far less offensive than physically removing Canadians from their homes and families and friends based on their ethnicity or skin colour.

That said, do tell, which "immigrant cultures", in your view, abuse the generosity of Canada?

[GP_Matt]

I can't really imagine a situation where Quebec does not separate peacefully and with Canada's reluctant blessing. In that situation I think Quebec has to take a portion of the national debt at the end of long negotiations on almost every topic. There are thousands of things that will need to be negotiated though. Would Quebec be allowed into NAFTA? Would Canadian tariffs apply to Quebec products? Will the Newfoundland hydroelectric deals be upheld? Currency, postage and military would need to be determined. Even the question of keeping Quebec whole will likely arise. Maybe certain areas of Quebec would prefer to remain in Canada.

I think it would be quite interesting to see a framework drawn up under which the separation would take place.

[Hans Landa]

Originally Posted by Makarov

That said, do tell, which "immigrant cultures", in your view, abuse the generosity of Canada?

There's no need to fish. I have no agenda here, other than to hope that people can play fair with their hate.

You can't really suggest something of the people of Quebec and have it's culture out of the equation. It's what the province is known for preserving better than any other province in Canada.