2012 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[403ep3]

Even if we were to get rid of some prospects we would have to get rid of KJ's contract as well. We are top 3 in runs in the MLB so I don't really see why we should pay that much more for some more runs. Hanley makes $15/year and KJ $6.375. Use that 9 million and B prospects to get a started signed for the next couple years, at least.

[zukes]

Let me get this straight, you guys wouldn't trade Escobar straight up for Hanley Ramirez? I am glad you are not the GM of the Jays.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Frankly I don't care whether anyone is fearful of him or not all i care about is that he get's on base which (for a legit shortstop with above average fielding) he's done great at over his career. Plus he rarely strikes out (relatively speaking). He's having a down year to be sure but he's actually a really good bat for a legit shortstop (unless you expect Tulo at the position). He's pretty valuable and the jays got him for a steal in trade assets and have him on a steal of a contract extension.



Blah, Fielding % is a bad stat. I prefer UZR or TZ personally. YMMV.



But Hanley isn't a good fielder (at least not at SS or 3B). I think he could handle 2B since it requires both less range and shorter throws but I would cringe putting him further left on the infield. Plus Hanley makes a lot of money. I'd like Ramirez as well... but not if it costs us Escobar. That would be a bad trade if it were straight up.



Huge overpay. He hasn't hit well the past couple years, is currently injured because he decided to take out some fustration on a dugout cooling fan, and makes 15-16M bucks a year. I think he's a good candidate for a bounceback but I ain't spending highly ranked prospects on someone with that kind of risk attached.

His babip has been unlucky low the last 2 seasons

ISO is still good, K rate is up a little bit and the walk rate is down a bit this year

but he's 28, he shouldn't be getting worse at this age.

I think a lot of it is still attitude this year, which is where the risk comes in

I think he can still be a 35/25 guy, especially in the dome, in which case the offense more than makes up for spotty defense at short.

Even if only for a few years and then you can move him or Lawrie off 3rd

this screams AA move to me, a chance for a top 3 SS

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by 403ep3

Even if we were to get rid of some prospects we would have to get rid of KJ's contract as well. We are top 3 in runs in the MLB so I don't really see why we should pay that much more for some more runs.

More Runs = More Wins. Everybody seemingly needs more arms, and with that demand comes higher cost. Hell, the Jays paid more for J.A. Happ then I'd have liked and if that's what Happ costs I'm shuddering to imagine what Garza would command. I'd love another starting pitcher for the rest of this and next year... Morrow, Romero, Happ, Alvarez, Hutchison doesn't exactly give me joygasims... but it's looking just too damn pricey.

So if pitching is cost prohibative then the way to get more relative runs is by upgrading your bats.

[403ep3]

Originally Posted by zukes

Let me get this straight, you guys wouldn't trade Escobar straight up for Hanley Ramirez? I am glad you are not the GM of the Jays.

I don't think anyone said escobar for hanley straight up..that's impossible

[d_phaneuf]

Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
#BlueJays interested in both Josh Johnson and Hanley Ramirez. Source says they have stronger desire to land JJ because of pitching need.


Would love JJ, they need more help in the rotation anyway and he is an ace having an off year

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by 403ep3

I don't think anyone said escobar for hanley straight up..that's impossible

I'll make it possible... I would not trade Yunel Escobar for Hanley Ramirez straight up. Escobar plays better D, has been a better batter over the last year and a half, is under flexible team control for longer, and costs 1/3 as much as Ramirez.

[403ep3]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'll make it possible... I would not trade Yunel Escobar for Hanley Ramirez straight up. Escobar plays better D, has been a better batter over the last year and a half, is under flexible team control for longer, and costs 1/3 as much as Ramirez.

Coming off a couple off years, Ramirez is still the better of the two. I can't see MIA trading straight up. Although he has had a couple bad years he is only 28 and was an MVP just several years ago.

[zukes]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I'll make it possible... I would not trade Yunel Escobar for Hanley Ramirez straight up. Escobar plays better D, has been a better batter over the last year and a half, is under flexible team control for longer, and costs 1/3 as much as Ramirez.

But we are led to believe that the money is there is the team is ready, so take the money out of the equation.

Escobar's D is better, 100% true.

Last year, when Ramirez was trying to play hurt and missed time, Escobar was having his best hitting year as a Jay and highest WAR year ever, sure he was better.

However taking defense out of the equation this year (which I do because Hech will play SS if this trade is made and Hanley will play 2B or OF) that eliminates the WAR difference. Ramirez is batting 9 points lower, his OPS is 109 points higher, in what is still a down year.

Going back, even with Ramirez' "bad" defense his WAR has been higher than Escobar's career high of 4.4 last year there times. He steals bases, something Escobar rarely does, hits for power, again something Escobar rarely does, plus he gets on base better in almost every year.

[dustyanddaflames]

I'd fear what it'd cost to acquire both Johnson and Ramirez - would rather Johnson, as our staff needs some serious help, short term and long term. He is your proverbial ace.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by zukes

But we are led to believe that the money is there is the team is ready, so take the money out of the equation.

Well sure in a world where payroll money is no object. But regardless of the platitudes that Beeston throws out at STH events money is always an object.

Originally Posted by zukes

However taking defense out of the equation this year (which I do because Hech will play SS if this trade is made and Hanley will play 2B or OF) that eliminates the WAR difference.

Okey, every scout that's made public statements raves about Hech's D but that bat of his is really really suspect. I'm just not certain that his bat is going to grade out as any better then, say, Johnny Mac's bat. Mac's a fan favorite and all but I wouldn't want to trot him out to have PA on a daily basis. Bottom line is I think what your looking at if you were to trade Escobar for Ramirez is a lateral move (in terms of overall team improvement) that costs more.

Now... if we could ADD Ramirez without subtracting any major league talent (beyond Johnson) that I'd do... it'd cost more $$ but I'd see it as a clear solid bet to upgrade ("bet" because of his recent struggles, if he goes back to the guy he was 3 years ago it's a win, if he doesn't then he's like getting KJ back with a heftier price tag). Even better if we could avoid dealing Hech as well because then we could replace Omar with him and we could find out if his bat could play in MLB.

[KelVarnsen]

Zaun agrees with those about saying Hanley can be better

Gregg Zaun ‏@greggzaun Hanley Ramirez is a 35 homer guy in this park and he's still young. Butterfield could make him a gold glover

Gregg Zaun ‏@greggzaunI think Hanley has a lot left in his bat. He needs a change of scenery. He could still play short and every Butterfield touches is better

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

Zaun agrees with those about saying Hanley can be better

Gregg Zaun ‏@greggzaun Hanley Ramirez is a 35 homer guy in this park and he's still young. Butterfield could make him a gold glover

Gregg Zaun ‏@greggzaunI think Hanley has a lot left in his bat. He needs a change of scenery. He could still play short and every Butterfield touches is better

Plus Dwayne Murphy seems to get a lot of home runs out of his hitters. The Jays are not especially adept at getting on base or hitting for average but they seem to get a lot of home runs.

Having said that I do believe there is far too much speculation involving the Jays and Hanley which usually results in nothing. I just think back to Darvish, Beltran, Fielder and other reports involving the Jays that result in nothing. AA seems to surprise us more often rather than validate these rumours.

[Caged Great]

I'd include Johnson in a deal for Hanley, and I'd also deal escobar.

Perhaps you'd see a trade that would net prospects for escobar that would be shipped to the Marlins along with some things for Hanley + JJ

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

Zaun agrees with those about saying Hanley can be better

Sadly for us Zaun is Toronto baseball's version on Don Cherry. If he ever says anything smart it's a case of a blind squirrell occasionally finding a nut. And this is not one of those times... "He could still play short" and "every Butterfield touches is better" is just silly. Of course he could still play short... I could play short but neither one of us could do it well. I appreciate Butterfield and all but everything he touches is not better and he himself can't "turn" anyone into gold glover... does Zaun have a short-term memory problem or was EE at 3B so traumatic that it was blocked from his memory.

Sportsnet really ought to replace him, Tabler, and Buck. Awful, they're just awful.

The radio guys can stay though.

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Sadly for us Zaun is Toronto baseball's version on Don Cherry. If he ever says anything smart it's a case of a blind squirrell occasionally finding a nut. And this is not one of those times... "He could still play short" and "every Butterfield touches is better" is just silly. Of course he could still play short... I could play short but neither one of us could do it well. I appreciate Butterfield and all but everything he touches is not better and he himself can't "turn" anyone into gold glover... does Zaun have a short-term memory problem or was EE at 3B so traumatic that it was blocked from his memory.

Sportsnet really ought to replace him, Tabler, and Buck. Awful, they're just awful.

The radio guys can stay though.

And Hazel Mae, she is god awful.

[VERVE]

I would not giveup Escobar for Ramirez. Despite being a star player for Miami, the team, fans and media will be constantly dealing with some issue or another with Hanley. The Jays clubhouse is very sound and led very well by Bautista. Escobar is an upcoming star player. I like the passion of Yunel Escobar and who does not step out of line by calling out his manager or teamates unlike Ramirez. Ramirez has been criticized for not playing 100%, arguing with teamates and media and refusing to apologize after the fact. Would one sacrifice clubhouse harmony for more hitting and speed? No thanks. The Jays have alot of depth in their lineup as well as great prospects on the farm. Their main issue is high number of injuries to the young arms which in most part have slowed them from competing well consistently.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Well Hanley Ramirez is a Dodger. All these rumours do is give me false hope and I am always just left feeling disappointed, while noneof these rumours likely have much merit as the Jays do their due diligence on everyone it still just feels like the Jays missed out again.

I would like the Jays to do something though, my expectations are low though.

[Hells Bells]

Considering the terrible return the Marlins got, AA couldn't have been interested.

If he was, he surely could have come up with a better package than Nathan Eovaldi.

My guess is Miami specifically wanted a starter and the Jays have none.

[Caged Great]

Hanley's 31 mil was entirely picked up by the dodgers, hence the bad return.

I wouldn't have minded him if we didn't already have esco and hech