Shooting at Movie screening of TDKR in Colorado

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

You two do realize which direction those smuggled guns are moving, yes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggli...ms_into_Mexico

Uhhh, both ways? Why would you even argue with that?

[Displaced Flames fan]

[QUOTE=Calgaryborn;3803519]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

As a person who grew up in rural manitoba I am well aware of the need for livestock/family protection.

My father was a Conservation Officer so nobody would deal with this more than he and he never carried anything close to what is available at Bass Pro.

I'm sorry but I can't buy the excuse "for farmers" at that level of firepower.[/QUOTE]

What level of firepower. We're talking about a .223 round. It is just a little bigger than a .22 round. Conservation Officers don't deal with coyotes stealing chickens from a chicken coop. They might ask someone with dogs to tree a cougar so he can shoot him if the animal stays within a domestic area but, that isn't common.

Your father packed a lot more firepower than a .223 rifle. He probably avoided semi-autos because they are more likely to jam than a lever or pump action at the wrong time. I'm guessing his primary weapon was something like a bolt action 30-06 because of the accuracy, range, and take down power. But' i'd also hazzard to guess he had a lever action or bolt action handy in case he was dealing with a wounded bear or some other dangerous situation.

.223 is the smallest caliber that is legal to use to harvest big game in the state of Colorado...and I would assume many other states. It is definitely not something that has a high level of firepower.

[EddyBeers]

Originally Posted by Azure

A massive, massive amount of weapons get moved over the Mexico/US border every single day.

A massive amount of people get smuggled each day for the purpose of sex trafficking, it does not mean that you do not try to enact laws to limit the negative effects of that activity. It seems odd that anyone would cite the number of guns that get illegally sent across borders as a reason that gun control either cannot work or should not be enacted.

[Azure]

Its also a very common round for hunting most small animals like gophers, etc, etc.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

That was long ago debunked. 95% of the firearms turned over to American authorities for tracing purposes turn out to be American in origin. Mexico doesn't turn over weapons that they don't assume came from America.

Source?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'll bet most of those weapons that turn out to be American are hand guns, as well. They're easy to smuggle both ways. The automatic weapons come from suppiers like China that will sell to anyone.

In fact, the evidence appears to suggest that the majority of those weapons are semi-automatic rifles.

Gun trafficking to Mexico has grown drastically worse in recent years, with the number of firearms trafficked to Mexico increasing from 2,000 in 2007 to 5,000 in 2009.[3] The increasing number of firearms smuggled across the U.S.-Mexico border aggravates the already extremely high levels of violence in the country, which has suffered 36,000 drug-related deaths in the past four years alone.[4] The majority of these contraband weapons are semiautomatic rifles—AK-47s in particular—which are much more sophisticated than the basic weapons used by the Mexican police. A report conducted by the U.S. General Accountability Office (GAO) found that the Mexican police are encountering weapons that are “increasingly more powerful and lethal.”[5]

The link between weak American gun laws and gun trafficking is particularly revealing when one examines the recent increase in the number of AK-47s and semiautomatic rifles found in Mexico. As stated previously, the GAO reported that these weapons have become increasingly common in Mexico. Notably, in 2004, the U.S. Congress removed a ban on the consumer purchase of assault rifles, which made it easier to acquire these weapons. While it is impossible to show that this law has directly impacted the trafficking of assault weapons, the recent spread of assault rifles into Mexico and the increase in violence crime since the ban was lifted do not seem to be purely coincidental.

SOURCE: http://www.coha.org/mexican-drug-vio...d-by-u-s-guns/

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

Uhhh, both ways? Why would you even argue with that?

Obviously at least some firearms are smuggled from Mexico to the United States, but every source that I have read clearly characterizes the problem of firearms smuggling across the US-Mexico border in terms of firearms moving from the United States to Mexico. After some searching, I haven't found one source which even identifies firearms moving from Mexico to the United States as a problem. Perhaps you could direct me to a source?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by EddyBeers

A massive amount of people get smuggled each day for the purpose of sex trafficking, it does not mean that you do not try to enact laws to limit the negative effects of that activity. It seems odd that anyone would cite the number of guns that get illegally sent across borders as a reason that gun control either cannot work or should not be enacted.

No what I'm suggesting is if you want more gun control start there. If Obama wants restrictions put on legal gun owners in border States he bloody well better start by protecting them.

I'll bet you most NRA members would applaud a secure southern border. The Republican party would back such an effort. Nobody disputes it would save lives. Why hasn't it been done? Because Obama wants reelection and will do nothing to soften his vote within the Hispanic community.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

No what I'm suggesting is if you want more gun control start there. If Obama wants restrictions put on legal gun owners in border States he bloody well better start by protecting them.

I'll bet you most NRA members would applaud a secure southern border. The Republican party would back such an effort. Nobody disputes it would save lives. Why hasn't it been done? Because Obama wants reelection and will do nothing to soften his vote within the Hispanic community.

Do you have any source for your assumption that illegal immigrants commit violent crimes at higher rates than US citizens?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Source?




In fact, the evidence appears to suggest that the majority of those weapons are semi-automatic rifles.





SOURCE: http://www.coha.org/mexican-drug-vio...d-by-u-s-guns/

I looked up your source and I do find it questionable being as it is an anti-gun lobby. But in any case, look at what it says: According to them a full 80% of guns confiscated in Mexico in 2010 were from the USA. That has got to be a mistake. Possibly 80% of the guns turned over to US law enforcement for tracing turns out to be American made. How often does one make that mistake before it is no longer a mistake but rather intentional misreputation?

Your article in the background section suggests that in 2007 two thousand weapons were smuggled into Mexico and in 2009 that number was up to five thousand firearms. In the same section it claims that the Mexican authorities confiscated 9 632 weapons in 2007 and 32 332 in 2009. That means that in 2007 a little under 21% were American weapons and in 2009 a little over 15% were from our of the States.

I don't have any stats for the number of weapons the US has seized that turn out to be from out of country. Both the Obama administration and the Mexican government are not too interested in that. I could find Stats on the number on illegal aliens that commit murder in the United States.

If approx. 80 to 85% of weapons used by the drug cartels originate outside of the United States than it would be reasonable to conclude that 80 to 85% of the weapons they bring the drugs in with are from outside of the States.

Getting back to my original point. Securing the border is the first step in any plan to control guns. It needs to be done long before you ask anything of your own citizens.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Do you have any source for your assumption that illegal immigrants commit violent crimes at higher rates than US citizens?

Funny how the Federal government keeps lots of Stats on ethnic victims of crimes but, few on the ethnicity or legal statis of the criminals. Go to this site and click on the first link "increased crime":

http://one-simple-idea.com/CrimeVict...galAliens1.htm

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I looked up your source and I do find it questionable being as it is an anti-gun lobby.

The Council on Hemispheric Affairs is an anti-gun lobby?

The Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) is a Washington, D.C.-based non-governmental organization (NGO) founded in 1975. In its own words, it was established to "promote the common interests of the [Western] hemisphere, raise the visibility of regional affairs and increase the importance of the inter-American relationship, as well as encourage the formulation of rational and constructive U.S. policies towards Latin America."

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council...pheric_Affairs

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

But in any case, look at what it says: According to them a full 80% of guns confiscated in Mexico in 2010 were from the USA. That has got to be a mistake. Possibly 80% of the guns turned over to US law enforcement for tracing turns out to be American made. How often does one make that mistake before it is no longer a mistake but rather intentional misreputation?

Why must it be a mistake?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Your article in the background section suggests that in 2007 two thousand weapons were smuggled into Mexico and in 2009 that number was up to five thousand firearms. In the same section it claims that the Mexican authorities confiscated 9 632 weapons in 2007 and 32 332 in 2009. That means that in 2007 a little under 21% were American weapons and in 2009 a little over 15% were from our of the States.

I think that you've confused the numbers a little bit. A gun confiscated in 2007 wasn't necessarily smuggled into Mexico in 2007. It may have been smuggled into Mexico years earlier.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I don't have any stats for the number of weapons the US has seized that turn out to be from out of country. Both the Obama administration and the Mexican government are not too interested in that.

I wonder why that is?

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I could find Stats on the number on illegal aliens that commit murder in the United States.

Yes, please do.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

If approx. 80 to 85% of weapons used by the drug cartels originate outside of the United States than it would be reasonable to conclude that 80 to 85% of the weapons they bring the drugs in with are from outside of the States.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Getting back to my original point. Securing the border is the first step in any plan to control guns. It needs to be done long before you ask anything of your own citizens.

Why?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

http://one-simple-idea.com/CrimeVict...galAliens1.htm

Really? You're offering this website as a source? Yikes.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Obviously at least some firearms are smuggled from Mexico to the United States, but every source that I have read clearly characterizes the problem of firearms smuggling across the US-Mexico border in terms of firearms moving from the United States to Mexico. After some searching, I haven't found one source which even identifies firearms moving from Mexico to the United States as a problem. Perhaps you could direct me to a source?

Drug cartels smuggle at least $10 billion dollars worth of drugs into Arizona ALONE every year. Its just a massive, massive market.

And with drugs come guns. I'm not going to argue how many, or which way they are going. All I'm saying is that there is a MASSIVE amount of stuff going back and forth across the border. With drugs come guns, and its common sense to think that they are being brought into the US as well.

Not that they need them, considering there are millions upon millions of illegal firearms already in the US. And its not slowing down either.

[SeeBass]

[QUOTE=Displaced Flames fan;3803597]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

.223 is the smallest caliber that is legal to use to harvest big game in the state of Colorado...and I would assume many other states. It is definitely not something that has a high level of firepower.

I was talking about what you can buy at Bass Pro not the shooter.

I guess I include magazine size when we talk about firepower

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

I was talking about what you can buy at Bass Pro not the shooter.

I guess I include magazine size when we talk about firepower

And you should include it, because it's an under-discussed aspect of the debate.

The 'I have to reload after 5 shots' argument is something I don't get from the pro-gun lobby.

Even for plinking, pack 4 megs and work on your reloading skills.

100 round drum...stupid.

[Azure]

Didn't he have a 100 round drum, and it jammed? That is how I understood it.

[corporatejay]

Dallas police now say four people were slightly injured when a man accidentaly fired his gun inside a Walmart on Monday night.

Police say 23-year-old Todd Canady of Waco was waiting in the checkout line at the Walmart on Forest Lane at Abrams Road about 10:15 p.m. when he reached for his wallet.
Instead, he accidentally fired the pistol in his pocket, police said.

Read more: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/190964...#ixzz21a3RKL8s

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The Council on Hemispheric Affairs is an anti-gun lobby?



SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council...pheric_Affairs



Why must it be a mistake?




I think that you've confused the numbers a little bit. A gun confiscated in 2007 wasn't necessarily smuggled into Mexico in 2007. It may have been smuggled into Mexico years earlier.



I wonder why that is?




Yes, please do.




Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.



Why?

In your own link the Council on Hemispheric affairs is discribed as a left wing think tank.

As I explained before these high percentages they are throwing out are bunk:

http://www.youdecidepolitics.com/200...-come-from-us/

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

They have been exposed as bunk for a long time. Anyone(not meaning you) who is still using them has an agenda that doesn't include the truth.

Regarding the 2000 and 5000 figures they are in line with what has been found to be american arms. How could they know what year something was smuggled? It has to refer to what the Mexican government confiscated and set back to the States.

Any gun law limits personal freedom. How can a Government of the People justify doing that when they are failing in their own responsibility to protect?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Read more: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/190964...#ixzz21a3RKL8s

This is why we need MORE gun safety courses.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

In your own link the Council on Hemispheric affairs is discribed as a left wing think tank.

I don't see anywhere in the wikipedia article or COHA's website where it is described as a left wing think tank. In fact, the following is from COHA's website:

COHA subscribes to no specific political credo nor does it maintain partisan allegiances. It supports open and democratic political processes just as it consistently has condemned authoritarian regimes of any stripe that fail to provide their populations with even minimal standards of political freedoms, economic and social justice, personal security and civic guarantees.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

As I explained before these high percentages they are throwing out are bunk:

http://www.youdecidepolitics.com/200...-come-from-us/

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

They have been exposed as bunk for a long time. Anyone(not meaning you) who is still using them has an agenda that doesn't include the truth.

Thanks for those links. That does clear things up a little. Here is the conclusion from www.factcheck.org:

Given the lack of hard data from Mexico, we can’t calculate a precise figure for what portion of crime guns have been traced to the U.S. Based on the best evidence we can find so far, we conclude that the 90 percent claim made by the president and others in his administration lacks a basis in solid fact. But we also conclude that the number is at least double what Fox News has reported, based on its reporters’ mistaken interpretation of ATF testimony.

Whether the number is 90 percent, or 36 percent, or something else, there’s no dispute that thousands of guns are being illegalIy transported into Mexico by way of the United States each year.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Any gun law limits personal freedom. How can a Government of the People justify doing that when they are failing in their own responsibility to protect?

Governments limit personal freedoms in countless different ways every day. Governments also fail to protect their citizens in countless different ways every day. So I don't understand how you can conclude that governments are precluded from limiting personal freedoms if the fail to protect their citizens in any way? Indeed, limiting personal freedoms (for example, controlling the possession and use of guns) is one of the primary ways that governments seek to protect their citizens (for example, from gun violence.)