2012 Toronto Blue Jays Season Thread

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Not a terribly exciting deal but a deal that addresses some of the concerns for the Jays. I'm not sad to see Cordero go and Happ is apparently starting to put it together.

Just happy to see Snider up with the big club.

Yes the forgotten man. I really hope Snider makes the most of this opportunity and wishing him an injury-free call up. Snider does have a tremendous attitude as shown when he was sent down to the farm (each time for the past few years) and in the eyes of the organization, that is a positive for him and perhaps helps him remain as a Jay (IMO).

[Matty81]

I am a bit shocked that they pay that kind of price for Happ, who has a way better pedigree as a starter than Charlie V, Laffey or Cecil and then stick him in the pen... Hopefully he gets put into the rotation quickly, otherwise why give up 7 players. Sure none of the prospects are really amazing but 4 of them are very solid B prospects. Not the kind of price to pay for a guy if you think he's Brian Tallet 2.0

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I am a bit shocked that they pay that kind of price for Happ, who has a way better pedigree as a starter than Charlie V, Laffey or Cecil and then stick him in the pen... Hopefully he gets put into the rotation quickly, otherwise why give up 7 players. Sure none of the prospects are really amazing but 4 of them are very solid B prospects. Not the kind of price to pay for a guy if you think he's Brian Tallet 2.0

It's one of those things that you can't single out any of the starters we are currently using as they've all been semi decent lately and yank them because you got a shiny new toy. It instills some confidence in Villaneuva Cecil and Laffey to keep up the good work, while shoring up the pen which was drastically needed, and provides a good quality replacement if any of those guys start to suck.

Musgrove's potential is to basically become what Happ is now, a 4th/5th starter or long reliever.

Woj is not likely going to make the majors with any kind of success

Perez is hurt too much, has no power and isn't hitting all that well and is 4th on the depth chart behind Jimenez, D'Arnaud and JPA.

Rollins is replaceable

So even though we gave some stuff up, we didn't really. Plus we have so many starters that we are doubling them up and that runs you into trouble because once guys start getting moved up like Snydergaard Nicolino etc then you'll only have a couple spots available for your next wave of guys like Norris/Comer/Smoral to fill in and each of those guys has a lot more potential than Musgrove. This was going to happen, especially with how many good guys we've got starting at the lower levels.

Next year, we will likely draft another starter or two in our top 5 or 6 picks anyway that'll likely have a similar upside of Norris or Smoral etc instead of being a B guy like Musgrove. I'd personally rather have spots open only for elite prospects on the farm and get as many of those kinds as possible.

The Jays are a better team today, and will likely be able to keep Lyon for less than 4 million which isn't a big deal, and have control of the other two guys for years as well, both of which you could see a longer term contract being offered to. Say like with Happ, you could likely see a 3/24 with 2 or 3 options at 10 mil per if he comes in and starts and performs decently.

[JTech780]

I feel like the Jays had to give up so many prospects so that the Astros would take Cordero and Francisco, kind of like giving Buffalo a 2nd rounder to take Kotalik. I like Happ and Lyon they are both solid players, but I hate to see the Jays give up on 19 year olds like Musgrove and Wojciechowski was the 41st overall pick just 2 years ago.

Also there is a player to be named later, that is most likely a player that was drafted and signed this year (you can not trade players that were drafted and signed for a year after signing them). 5 prospects for 3 average arms seems kind of steep.

Wojciechowski and Perez are good examples of trading players while their stock down as well those two players good come back to be good big leaguers.

[Caged Great]

Musgrove has shoulder issues apparently and hasn't pitched since June 24th, and might require surgery so his value might have dropped if we held on to him.

Also, Woj and Perez are not likely to develop into anything more than a backup catcher and middle reliever (not even Jason Frasor good)

So it's not a huge huge loss prospect wise. Gave up 3 guys that are in the mid/late 20's in term of prospect depth and that's about it.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I am a bit shocked that they pay that kind of price for Happ, who has a way better pedigree as a starter than Charlie V, Laffey or Cecil and then stick him in the pen... Hopefully he gets put into the rotation quickly, otherwise why give up 7 players. Sure none of the prospects are really amazing but 4 of them are very solid B prospects. Not the kind of price to pay for a guy if you think he's Brian Tallet 2.0

If I am understanding your post correctly, the price is not bad at all for Happ. Happ is wayyy better than Tallet ever could be. Happ was part of the Phillies rotation at one point and the Jays were very high on him a few years back. I believe Happ can be part of the latter part of the rotation.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Musgrove has shoulder issues apparently and hasn't pitched since June 24th, and might require surgery so his value might have dropped if we held on to him.

Also, Woj and Perez are not likely to develop into anything more than a backup catcher and middle reliever (not even Jason Frasor good)

So it's not a huge huge loss prospect wise. Gave up 3 guys that are in the mid/late 20's in term of prospect depth and that's about it.

So, did the Jays just miss that badly on Wojciechowski? He was only drafted two years ago and was a first rounder.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

So, did the Jays just miss that badly on Wojciechowski? He was only drafted two years ago and was a first rounder.

He's 23 and is in A ball, unless you're completely blowing everyone away, you should not be at that level, and he wasn't so that has to reduce expectations from him being possibly a good starter down to being a possibly decent reliever and even that isn't a guarantee.

Baseball isn't like hockey, there are a ton of busts from the #1 pick right through.

[Caged Great]

The Jays are now 2-0 without Cordero.

[Flickered Flame]

As some of you know, I have a couple of connections within the A's org., I was told not to be surprised if Hanley Ramirez ends up a Blue Jay.

[howard_the_duck]

Would have to think Yunel/Hechavarria is in any deal to Miami, although I shudder to think of Hanley at SS defensively.

His stock has definitely dropped but he has all-world talent. I hope the prospect pool wouldn't need to be depleted for this one as I'm not sure he's the guy I would break the bank for.

Definitely an intriguing idea and fits the mold of AA buying low on an asset.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

As some of you know, I have a couple of connections within the A's org., I was told not to be surprised if Hanley Ramirez ends up a Blue Jay.

I could dig it if...

A: He can play a reasonable 2B (Because 3B and SS are taken),
B: The price in assets is reasonable (I'm assuming the cost will be K. Johnson + Prospect/s or just Prospects)

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Would have to think Yunel/Hechavarria is in any deal to Miami, although I shudder to think of Hanley at SS defensively.

Yunel is a top 10 SS in MLB even in a down year and he's on a extremely extremely team friendly contract. I would hesitate at any deal that involved him going the other way. I'd be willing to part with Hechavarria due to the suspect bat (but that D is just soooo good). I think they're looking to get someone to replace Johnson next year if they go after someone like Ramirez (2B being the less demanding leftside MIF position).

But yes this smells very much like an Anthoupolis move (buy low on a high upside player under team control with "make-up" issues).

[jschick88]

Listening to baseball central on the fan590 and they were saying that David Cooper was pulled from the Las Vegas lineup last night.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by jschick88

Listening to baseball central on the fan590 and they were saying that David Cooper was pulled from the Las Vegas lineup last night.

Hech didn't play last night either... hmmmm.

[Otsy]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I could dig it if...

A: He can play a reasonable 2B (Because 3B and SS are taken),
B: The price in assets is reasonable (I'm assuming the cost will be K. Johnson + Prospect/s or just Prospects)



Yunel is a top 10 SS in MLB even in a down year and he's on a extremely extremely team friendly contract. I would hesitate at any deal that involved him going the other way. I'd be willing to part with Hechavarria due to the suspect bat (but that D is just soooo good). I think they're looking to get someone to replace Johnson next year if they go after someone like Ramirez (2B being the less demanding leftside MIF position).

But yes this smells very much like an Anthoupolis move (buy low on a high upside player under team control with "make-up" issues).

If he's a top 10 SS it's just barely and won't be for much longer. Offensively you could replace him pretty easily. The career .285 avg is nice, but career highs 14HR's and 6 SB's don't exactly make anyone fearful of him in the lineup.

Fielding he's close to top 10 every year, 12th, 11th, 13th the last three years and currently 7th in fielding % this year.

The team friendly contract is obviously a huge +, but I wouldn't mind seeing Hanley on the team.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

As some of you know, I have a couple of connections within the A's org., I was told not to be surprised if Hanley Ramirez ends up a Blue Jay.

That's going around a bit today, I would love it for the Jays

I would give up 2 of any prospect not named D'Arnaud + some other stuff

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Otsy

Offensively you could replace him pretty easily. The career .285 avg is nice, but career highs 14HR's and 6 SB's don't exactly make anyone fearful of him in the lineup.

Frankly I don't care whether anyone is fearful of him or not all i care about is that he get's on base which (for a legit shortstop with above average fielding) he's done great at over his career. Plus he rarely strikes out (relatively speaking). He's having a down year to be sure but he's actually a really good bat for a legit shortstop (unless you expect Tulo at the position). He's pretty valuable and the jays got him for a steal in trade assets and have him on a steal of a contract extension.

Originally Posted by Otsy

Fielding he's close to top 10 every year, 12th, 11th, 13th the last three years and currently 7th in fielding % this year.

Blah, Fielding % is a bad stat. I prefer UZR or TZ personally. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Otsy

The team friendly contract is obviously a huge +, but I wouldn't mind seeing Hanley on the team.

But Hanley isn't a good fielder (at least not at SS or 3B). I think he could handle 2B since it requires both less range and shorter throws but I would cringe putting him further left on the infield. Plus Hanley makes a lot of money. I'd like Ramirez as well... but not if it costs us Escobar. That would be a bad trade if it were straight up.

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

I would give up 2 of any prospect not named D'Arnaud + some other stuff

Huge overpay. He hasn't hit well the past couple years, is currently injured because he decided to take out some fustration on a dugout cooling fan, and makes 15-16M bucks a year. I think he's a good candidate for a bounceback but I ain't spending highly ranked prospects on someone with that kind of risk attached.

[403ep3]

Why would we need Hanley? He is slowly declining and has horrible defense. He is playing 3B right now and I doubt we would move Lawrie. He did play SS but his defense is #### compared to Esco..plus he costs way more than esco.

[nik-]

Yeah, I'd rather stay with Yunel and Hech as our future middle infield.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by 403ep3

Why would we need Hanley? He is slowly declining and has horrible defense. He is playing 3B right now and I doubt we would move Lawrie. He did play SS but his defense is #### compared to Esco..plus he costs way more than esco.

Move him to 2B though and I believe his defense could look better there. I don't expect great defense (we don't get that with KJ right now) but averagish with a good bat would be nice and I think the bat plays better in the good hitter parks in the ALE then in the NLE (to say nothing of that new stadium they got going in Miami).

I'd never trade Esco for him but he's an interesting potential piece.