Afghanistan was a progressing democracy until outside influences stepped in.
They have been bass ackwards for as long as I can remember. Soviet invasion was 79 so before that? From reading their history there has always been either a monarchy, communist puppet or dictator. Depending on your lean even Karzai could be considered a puppet.
That's fair enough. But that's a totally different statement than, Afghanistan was a progressing democracy until outside influences stepped in. Also, I'd disagree to the extent that Afghanistan society wants that. There are religious minorities and moderate muslims who probably don't want that. They may not form a majority, but that illustrates the difference between democracy and mob rule.
The next question is what do you do when that tribal society is harbouring fugitives that are planning major terrorist attacks on Western soil.
Same thing we do with N Korea, Pakistan Iran or, over the years Saudi, the Yeman, Zimbabwe Libya, Syria and countless other countries that dont like us, spy on them, occasionally send in a CIA hit team, mostly though the threat is overblown.
Night Ops...Pretty hairy stuff! Three attacks to a tanker convoy on AO1 involving 20 +trucks, ORM connex's, LPG, and 12 KIA...We pushed through without any secondarys
Same thing we do with N Korea, Pakistan Iran or, over the years Saudi, the Yeman, Zimbabwe Libya, Syria and countless other countries that dont like us, spy on them, occasionally send in a CIA hit team, mostly though the threat is overblown.
No, but the response was inappropriate and misdirected.
What would you have done... nothing? Strengthen our borders even more so even we as citizens can't move around freely?
By going over there it put these ######s on the run,they don't have the ability to run their terrorist camps and train suicide nuts like they use too.Just about every time since 9-11 that a major terrorist attack was stopped(NY bridge,Sears Tower,CN tower..etc) was because of intelligence in the middle east. If we aren't there we can't hear the loose lips.
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I would have quietly gone into pakistan and afghanistan using stealth and undercover ops, with conventional tactics secondary or in a supportive role. I certainly would not have invaded Iraq...WTF was that? It certainly had nothing to do with solving the threat of terrorism related to 9/11.
What would you have done... nothing? Strengthen our borders even more so even we as citizens can't move around freely?
By going over there it put these ######s on the run,they don't have the ability to run their terrorist camps and train suicide nuts like they use too.Just about every time since 9-11 that a major terrorist attack was stopped(NY bridge,Sears Tower,CN tower..etc) was because of intelligence in the middle east. If we aren't there we can't hear the loose lips.
I would have taken just as long but not completely blow the bank and the US army on hunting down every member of al Quada down and executed them where ever they might be, which is what we did in the end.
What the US did was strengthen Islamist extremism across the middle east, before they invaded their was significant opposition to the mullahs in Iran and they were on the verge of losing control, the invasion changed that, undermined Egypt and Pakistan, on top of that the cost and the instability has gone along way to undermine the US economy and may turn out to be the tipping point that caused the US to lose hegomany.
I suspect, if he were still around, he'd probably invite you to do the same, as would I. But please - do tell - what exactly did he say that you disagree with?
__________________
-James
GO FLAMES GO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure
Typical dumb take.
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1. Communism is not an "anti-religion", it's a political/economic system. One can be a religious communist.
2. The people who were murdered by communist leaders like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., were killed for political reasons, not because of their religious beliefs.
Those Communist governments were officially atheistic. It was atheists who ordered those millions of murders. They killed in the name of no God.
Religion is not the cause of most wars: War is caused by a lust for power or wealth. It is caused by a hatred or fear of those who are different than us. Those differences are just as often cultural or race based as they are religious or political in nature.
Also, religion isn't going to disappear any time soon. The countries that made up the Soviet block have the highest percentages of atheists in the world. This is because for some 90 years religious practice was suppressed and atheism was taught within the school systems. Yet these same countries today are fertile fields for evangelism. It is far easier to start a church there than in North America.
You see atheism grew over there because it was forced upon the people along with the rest of the communist ideology. At the same time religious expression was silenced. Now when given a choice many are embracing religion.
In North America and Europe the rise in atheism has been caused by hedonism. Hedonism itself is more often associated with a religion than an ideology. But regardless of the form hedonism is found, one thing is sure: It eventually causes its own demise. Unfortunately that demise usually includes the whole society.
Those Communist governments were officially atheistic. It was atheists who ordered those millions of murders. They killed in the name of no God.
Religion is not the cause of most wars: War is caused by a lust for power or wealth. It is caused by a hatred or fear of those who are different than us. Those differences are just as often cultural or race based as they are religious or political in nature.
Also, religion isn't going to disappear any time soon. The countries that made up the Soviet block have the highest percentages of atheists in the world. This is because for some 90 years religious practice was suppressed and atheism was taught within the school systems. Yet these same countries today are fertile fields for evangelism. It is far easier to start a church there than in North America.
You see atheism grew over there because it was forced upon the people along with the rest of the communist ideology. At the same time religious expression was silenced. Now when given a choice many are embracing religion.
In North America and Europe the rise in atheism has been caused by hedonism. Hedonism itself is more often associated with a religion than an ideology. But regardless of the form hedonism is found, one thing is sure: It eventually causes its own demise. Unfortunately that demise usually includes the whole society.
Those Communist governments were officially atheistic. It was atheists who ordered those millions of murders. They killed in the name of no God.
not trying to take away from your argument necessarily, but this reminded me of another funny entry in the Book of Oatmeal...
Spoiler!
anyhow I feel this argument essentially works both ways, even if it doesn't seem like it on the religion side when the culprits are spouting crap about what they claim is God's will. to me, evil is evil regardless of what you try to wrap it up in. end poverty, inequality, hunger, suffering, etc. and you can achieve peace within any belief system.
Last edited by Inglewood Jack; 07-16-2012 at 07:04 AM.
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When was this?
