[Signing] Flames sign Jiri Hudler - 4 Years, $16 Million

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by dobbles

wanted to drop my 2 cents here since i spent so long as the resident wings troll in years past!

i am torn on hudler. he was widely hated by the fan base the last couple years but i feel much of that was emotional due to him screwing the team over for the khl. i do also think its funny that wings fans are so excited he is gone, yet we brought in samuelsson for 3 mil? i would have rather given hudler 4 myself...

i do feel his numbers were sometimes the product of his linemates, however, this year, as mentioned he was the one going to dirty areas to finish the play. hard to fault the guy for playing his role and getting points for it.

i feel one of his strengths was his even strength play. lots of players can pad numbers on the PP, but jiri was one of the most consistent 5on5 players for the team this year. its also hard to fault him for lack of PP production; the wings team was definitely off this year and his 2nd unit never found any chemistry. personally, i think the scheme was bad and not anything hudler was doing. also, he spent a lot of time on the point which didnt help his numbers. though the thing it did bring out was that his footspeed was so terrible. he gave up many shorthanded chances when coughing up the puck and getting beat down the ice.

many wings fans didnt want hudler back at all. then again, most of them were penciling in parise to replace him in the top 6... personally, i would have welcomed him back at a reasonable salary. for me, 4 mil was the top end of that. i was hoping the wings could bring him back for 3.5ish.i think most reasonable wings fans were close to my opinion where they would want him back but had a specific price they thought was too much.

Originally Posted by dobbles

prepare to be disapointed then. hudler is a 40-60 point guy most likely. and decent linemates? all due respect to iginla, but hudler played all year with zetterberg and calgary has no one as good as him to play with. also on that line was filppula who has become a pretty legit top 6 guy... so its not as if he was playing with scrubs. sure the extra minutes will help, but at least in detroit he was sheltered behind datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, and filppula. i dont think he will be able to hide in calgary as well.

Thanks for both of these posts dobbles.

[Resolute 14]

Indeed. It does temper the Wings' fan reaction a little knowing that some of the sentiment is formed of irrational hate. Seems we aren't the only fan base prone to it.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Indeed. It does temper the Wings' fan reaction a little knowing that some of the sentiment is formed of irrational hate. Seems we aren't the only fan base prone to it.

I wonder why people would have expected any different. I'm not sure any fanbase is real different than another (other than the Oilers )...people are pretty similar: Most of us are irrational, impatient, and blinded by bias.

[Barnission]

Originally Posted by dobbles

prepare to be disapointed then. hudler is a 40-60 point guy most likely. and decent linemates? all due respect to iginla, but hudler played all year with zetterberg and calgary has no one as good as him to play with. also on that line was filppula who has become a pretty legit top 6 guy... so its not as if he was playing with scrubs. sure the extra minutes will help, but at least in detroit he was sheltered behind datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, and filppula. i dont think he will be able to hide in calgary as well.

Please, do your homework before you post. Zetterberg isn't Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe, Zetterberg only elevates people's play to a degree, and most of it can't be seen through statistics such as points. Other players have come and played in Detroit, and they didn't miraculously become super-stars because of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Similarly, players have not left and miraculously become horrible. Guys like Todd Bertuzzi came in and didn't increase their point totals by 20 points, and guys like Mikael Samuelsson did not decrease their point totals by 20 points, in fact Bertuzzi's technically dropped and Samuelsson's rose.

[Resolute 14]

I'm cautiously optimistic, as always, but time will tell if you are right, Barnission.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I'm not necessarily challenging your argument, but I would like to point out that Mike Richards was not a first line player last year. Mike Fisher did appear to be the Predators top centre based on ice time.

I agree, and there is now a strong argument that Richards isn't a first-line centre. I would also argue that anyone who suggests Mike Fisher is a first line centre in the NHL is just being silly.

But ya, my point is that you can't just look at a player's point totals, see that he was among the top 90 forwards in scoring, and then conclude/describe him as a first line player in the NHL because there are 30 teams and 3 forwards on the first line. It's no different from people calling Butler a 1st pairing defenseman in the NHL just because he played on the first pairing on the Calgary Flames last year. When people describe a player as a first-line player it means more than just the role he played for his team.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by FAN

I hear this argument a lot and I think that anyone who watches hockey and follows the NHL knows that that argument is flawed.

Pascal Dupuis (59 points) and Mike Fisher (51 points) had more than 50 points last year. Mike Richards had 44 points. Do you really think Dupuis and Fisher are first-line players in the NHL while Richards is not based on the 50 points threshhold?

Well my argument wasn't that 50 points is the threshold for a "first-line" player. I was disputing the fact that 50 points is "mediocre" when only 95 forwards got 50+ points last season.

I would say that Richards received a lot of critisim for not producing offensively last season and he really didn't play like a first line center.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Barnission

Please, do your homework before you post. Zetterberg isn't Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe, Zetterberg only elevates people's play to a degree, and most of it can't be seen through statistics such as points. Other players have come and played in Detroit, and they didn't miraculously become super-stars because of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Similarly, players have not left and miraculously become horrible. Guys like Todd Bertuzzi came in and didn't increase their point totals by 20 points, and guys like Mikael Samuelsson did not decrease their point totals by 20 points, in fact Bertuzzi's technically dropped and Samuelsson's rose.

I would agree and would note that as much as the home fan base maligns Iginla, Zetterberg has outscored him once in the past 5-6 years.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Barnission

Please, do your homework before you post. Zetterberg isn't Wayne Gretzky or Gordie Howe, Zetterberg only elevates people's play to a degree, and most of it can't be seen through statistics such as points. Other players have come and played in Detroit, and they didn't miraculously become super-stars because of Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Similarly, players have not left and miraculously become horrible. Guys like Todd Bertuzzi came in and didn't increase their point totals by 20 points, and guys like Mikael Samuelsson did not decrease their point totals by 20 points, in fact Bertuzzi's technically dropped and Samuelsson's rose.

sure zetterberg isnt gretzky. however, in my opinion he is a better player than iginla. not by much, but better. if you look at a per game average, they are very similar since the lockout; iginla is 1.014 and Z is 1.017. however the difference in my opinion is that in his own zone he is much better. regardless, thats not really the point.

the point i was trying to make is that in detroit hudler was shielded better. he was on the second line which already got him away from most top pairing defensemen as they played the datsyuk line. (maybe you can start arguing that datsyuk isnt that good next?) and while hudler was on the 2nd line, he was the 3rd best player on the line.

and once again, i am not trying to totally dismiss hudler. as i initially stated, i think he is a pretty good player. i am just trying to temper expectations.

also, before you go telling people to do their homework, you might want to do your own. you bring up sammy and bert as examples of zetterberg not being that great, yet sammy played 3rd line before leaving detroit, and bert has played primarily with datsyuk. i know its a message board so everyone acts tough, but really there is no need to be a dick.

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by dobbles

sure zetterberg isnt gretzky. however, in my opinion he is a better player than iginla. not by much, but better. if you look at a per game average, they are very similar since the lockout; iginla is 1.014 and Z is 1.017. however the difference in my opinion is that in his own zone he is much better. regardless, thats not really the point.

Iginla and Zetterberg were both inconsistent last year and by both of their standards had very sub-par years. Zetterberg is definitely the better all around player at this point in his career but as far as finishing goes Iginla is the guy.

the point i was trying to make is that in detroit hudler was shielded better. he was on the second line which already got him away from most top pairing defensemen as they played the datsyuk line. (maybe you can start arguing that datsyuk isnt that good next?) and while hudler was on the 2nd line, he was the 3rd best player on the line.

Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencorss, Hudler, Beartschi, Cervenka, Stempniak and probably Backlund.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bertuzzi, Filppula, Cleary, Franzen, Helm, Miller, Adelkader/Holmstrom(is he coming back? I have no idea)

While Calgary doesn't have a Datsyuk, at this point in time I would say Calgary has more top 9 depth than Detroit. Hudler is just as sheilded in Calgary as he was in Detroit. The biggest question is will the team as a whole buy into Hartleys plan.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

Iginla and Zetterberg were both inconsistent last year and by both of their standards had very sub-par years. Zetterberg is definitely the better all around player at this point in his career but as far as finishing goes Iginla is the guy.



Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencorss, Hudler, Beartschi, Cervenka, Stempniak and probably Backlund.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bertuzzi, Filppula, Cleary, Franzen, Helm, Miller, Adelkader/Holmstrom(is he coming back? I have no idea)

While Calgary doesn't have a Datsyuk, at this point in time I would say Calgary has more top 9 depth than Detroit. Hudler is just as sheilded in Calgary as he was in Detroit. The biggest question is will the team as a whole buy into Hartleys plan.

I agree that we atleast have comparable top 9 depth to Detroit if not a chance to have a slight edge this year.

By position of the top 9:
Line 1 LW - Tanguay vs. Filppula - Tanguay has the slight edge IMO
Line 1 C - Cammalleri vs. Datsyuk - Cammy is a good player but is worse at centre and he's going up against Datsyuk so moving on
Line 1 RW - Iginla vs. Franzen - Again moving on
Line 2 LW - Glencross vs. Cleary - Very similar players i'd give Glencross the edge because he's 5 years younger
Line 2 C - Cervenka vs. Zetterberg - lol
Line 2 RW - Hudler vs. Samuelsson - I think I'm giving the edge to Hudler, but it's close
Line 3 LW - Baertschi vs. Brunner (over Miller) - Two Swiss players that are starting their first full years, could go either way.
Line 3 C - Backlund vs. Helm - Helm gets the edge here by a fair margin
Line 3 RW - Bertuzzi vs. Stempniak - Bert is getting older but he is the better player by a mile overall, edge goes to him but Stempniak could be better.

So in summary Flames have the edge in 4, Wings have the edge in 4 and Baertschi and Brunner are the toss ups.

[Barnission]

Originally Posted by dobbles

also, before you go telling people to do their homework, you might want to do your own. you bring up sammy and bert as examples of zetterberg not being that great, yet sammy played 3rd line before leaving detroit, and bert has played primarily with datsyuk. i know its a message board so everyone acts tough, but really there is no need to be a dick.

I mentioned both Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

I admit I was being rude initially, but I severely dislike when people dismiss another player's performance simply because he plays with great players. It is, although somewhat unintentionally, a great backhanded slap to the player, and just kind of annoying. So I apologize, but I didn't do it to act "tough", I did it because I was genuinely annoyed.

[Vulcan]

I like this signing just because we are now taking one of Detroit's better players instead of the other way around.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Super-Rye

Iginla and Zetterberg were both inconsistent last year and by both of their standards had very sub-par years. Zetterberg is definitely the better all around player at this point in his career but as far as finishing goes Iginla is the guy.

Iginla, Tanguay, Cammalleri, Glencorss, Hudler, Beartschi, Cervenka, Stempniak and probably Backlund.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bertuzzi, Filppula, Cleary, Franzen, Helm, Miller, Adelkader/Holmstrom(is he coming back? I have no idea)

While Calgary doesn't have a Datsyuk, at this point in time I would say Calgary has more top 9 depth than Detroit. Hudler is just as sheilded in Calgary as he was in Detroit. The biggest question is will the team as a whole buy into Hartleys plan.

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

I agree that we atleast have comparable top 9 depth to Detroit if not a chance to have a slight edge this year.

By position of the top 9:
Line 1 LW - Tanguay vs. Filppula - Tanguay has the slight edge IMO
Line 1 C - Cammalleri vs. Datsyuk - Cammy is a good player but is worse at centre and he's going up against Datsyuk so moving on
Line 1 RW - Iginla vs. Franzen - Again moving on
Line 2 LW - Glencross vs. Cleary - Very similar players i'd give Glencross the edge because he's 5 years younger
Line 2 C - Cervenka vs. Zetterberg - lol
Line 2 RW - Hudler vs. Samuelsson - I think I'm giving the edge to Hudler, but it's close
Line 3 LW - Baertschi vs. Brunner (over Miller) - Two Swiss players that are starting their first full years, could go either way.
Line 3 C - Backlund vs. Helm - Helm gets the edge here by a fair margin
Line 3 RW - Bertuzzi vs. Stempniak - Bert is getting older but he is the better player by a mile overall, edge goes to him but Stempniak could be better.

So in summary Flames have the edge in 4, Wings have the edge in 4 and Baertschi and Brunner are the toss ups.

i think in a way we are getting way away from the actual point. its not about top 9 depth or even if iginla is better than zetterberg. the point that i am trying to make is that hudler was able to be the 3rd most lethal player on the second line. that meant no top pairing D to play against and even when he was out there, he would often be the last forward they would worry about. so my question would be, do you guys honestly think that hudler will be on a line with linemates equivalent of zetterberg and filppula this year?

i dont follow the flames close enough to know your potential lines going into the season, but judging on heavy jacks post, that means you are implying that glencross/cervenka will be his linemates. no way are they anywhere close to zet/fil...

once again, i am not trying to diss on calgary or even hudler. i am just implying he will probably have a tougher time producing with less skilled linemates. the initial remark i made was in response to a poster saying hudler would get 60-80 points because of increased TOI and better linemates. i do not think he will have better linemates this year than he did last year unless he goes on line 1 which from my understanding isnt the plan.

Originally Posted by Barnission

I mentioned both Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

I admit I was being rude initially, but I severely dislike when people dismiss another player's performance simply because he plays with great players. It is, although somewhat unintentionally, a great backhanded slap to the player, and just kind of annoying. So I apologize, but I didn't do it to act "tough", I did it because I was genuinely annoyed.

fair enough. i personally felt like i was pretty rational in my initial post about hudler and certainly didnt imply he was a tag along. thats why i made that point in my first point to say that his role was more cleanup this past year and he did well at it.

[opendoor]

Regardless of who Hudler has played with or who he will play with, predicting him to hit up to 80 points and nearly double his average production over the past 4 seasons is an exceptionally lofty prediction. Especially given that only 1 guy in the entire Western Conference hit that mark last season.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Well my argument wasn't that 50 points is the threshold for a "first-line" player. I was disputing the fact that 50 points is "mediocre" when only 95 forwards got 50+ points last season.

I agree with you that 50 points in today's NHL is nothing to complain about. I just disagreed with you in you calling Hudler a first line player based on the fact he was among the top 90 forwards in scoring.

[Alberta_Beef]

my completely uneducated guess would have Hudler coming in and getting 20 goals and 45 points

[Kipperking]

15 goals 20 assists for Hudler next season.

[Lobotroth]

15-20 goals and 20-30 assists, not exceeding 50 points, that's my expectation.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

my completely uneducated guess would have Hudler coming in and getting 20 goals and 45 points

I'm thinking somewhere along those lines too. The guy is really talented though and depending on his PP time and who is he with 5on5 I could see him hitting 25 goals 60 points.