General Ongoing Coyotes saga thread

[Shin Pad]

[QUOTE=afc wimbledon;3783206]How hard can it be to get Arizona voters to sign a petition demanding the goverment stop funding a what is all but a welfare program for immigrant workers coming in from over the border?

in this case Canadians mostly.[/QUOTE]

Really? Canadians pay property taxes down there, and we spend a lot of money in their restaurants, and stores, etc. And we do it without taking any American jobs. Canadians are hardly immigrant workers down there. I think you got the northern border mixed up with the southern border.

[Northendzone]

time for bettman to trot out the next buyer, and his crazy financing scheme.......as an aside, 10% sales tax in glendale, yikes!!!!

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

If they fold, they will still be out the $140M the NHL paid for the Coyotes, so there is no gain in folding them.

If Gary folds them, he's an even bigger tool than I thought.

It's cute how you still personalize the issue into it all being Bettman's doing. Do you honestly think the 29 groups that own the team won't have any say in such a decision?

Rhetorical questions about your state of mind aside, I don't believe the NHL would fold the team myself, but if you take away the emotional aspect, there is a level of logical sense to it. For one thing, the NHL is already out the $140 million no matter what. However, they expect to recoup that money by selling the team. Whether the Coyotes are sold to a local owner, sold to another city, or folded with an expansion team brought in place for 2013-14, the NHL is going to sell a team to a new group. So the theoretical gain in folding the team is that any fallout of such a move is less than the cost of operating the team in Glendale.

The problem here is that the lease won't come up for vote until November. Which means that a snap suspension or relocation of the franchise would render that referendum moot. Is the NHL prepared to do that? Personally, I don't think so, which is why I expect the Coyotes will play their final season in the desert in 2012-13.

[powderjunkie]

[QUOTE=Shin Pad;3783598]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

How hard can it be to get Arizona voters to sign a petition demanding the goverment stop funding a what is all but a welfare program for immigrant workers coming in from over the border?

in this case Canadians mostly.[/QUOTE]

Really? Canadians pay property taxes down there, and we spend a lot of money in their restaurants, and stores, etc. And we do it without taking any American jobs. Canadians are hardly immigrant workers down there. I think you got the northern border mixed up with the southern border.

He meant the 12 or so Canadian hockey players on the team...


This year could be extra impressive in terms of low attendance. The Coyotes could really suck, especially if Doan goes too. I think Mike Smith will come back to earth and be fairly mediocre. The writing will be on the wall more than ever, and may actually be a distraction this time too

[Jordan!]

[QUOTE=powderjunkie;3783735]

Originally Posted by Shin Pad

He meant the 12 or so Canadian hockey players on the team...


This year could be extra impressive in terms of low attendance. The Coyotes could really suck, especially if Doan goes too. I think Mike Smith will come back to earth and be fairly mediocre. The writing will be on the wall more than ever, and may actually be a distraction this time too

The team will be competitive because of one man: Dave Tippet

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It's cute how you still personalize the issue into it all being Bettman's doing. Do you honestly think the 29 groups that own the team won't have any say in such a decision?

Rhetorical questions about your state of mind aside, I don't believe the NHL would fold the team myself, but if you take away the emotional aspect, there is a level of logical sense to it. For one thing, the NHL is already out the $140 million no matter what. However, they expect to recoup that money by selling the team. Whether the Coyotes are sold to a local owner, sold to another city, or folded with an expansion team brought in place for 2013-14, the NHL is going to sell a team to a new group. So the theoretical gain in folding the team is that any fallout of such a move is less than the cost of operating the team in Glendale.

The problem here is that the lease won't come up for vote until November. Which means that a snap suspension or relocation of the franchise would render that referendum moot. Is the NHL prepared to do that? Personally, I don't think so, which is why I expect the Coyotes will play their final season in the desert in 2012-13.

I think I'll add you to the list of tools. Can't you reply to my posts without being an insulting turd?

I'll repeat this for those loving Bettman sycophants, when the NHL does something good, ain't Bettman great but when the NHL does something questionable, it ain't Bettman's fault. He's only taking orders. You can't have it both ways.

My take is that Bettman has more control than you think, after all most of the current owners had to be vetted by him to become owners, so just from being around for close to 20 years, he's gained all the power he needs to make decisions.

I think the party is over, the Jamison bid will fall apart now that the deal has gone to a referendum but I expect Gary to hang tough this season in Phoenix, after all he should have left 3 years ago.

[Resolute 14]

Oh, there is no doubt at all that Bettman wields a considerable amount of power. That he was able to convince the league to give him veto powers ahead of the 2004 lockout made that plenty obvious. That does not change the fact that it is not his money that is being funneled into the ownership of this team, but that of the other 29 ownership groups. As such, the suggestion that Bettman would fold the team is patently ridiculous. He may recommend such an action, but for anyone not driven by petty hatred of the man, it is obvious that a move such as this would be an action of the BoG as a whole.

[Jordan!]

The deal hasn't gotten to a referendum.. the sales tax petition. MAY

[troutman]

Why isn't the focus of Coyotes fans on buying more season tickets (twice as many), and paying more for season tickets (twice as much)? This would get around a lot of the Glendale issues.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Oh, there is no doubt at all that Bettman wields a considerable amount of power. That he was able to convince the league to give him veto powers ahead of the 2004 lockout made that plenty obvious. That does not change the fact that it is not his money that is being funneled into the ownership of this team, but that of the other 29 ownership groups. As such, the suggestion that Bettman would fold the team is patently ridiculous. He may recommend such an action, but for anyone not driven by petty hatred of the man, it is obvious that a move such as this would be an action of the BoG as a whole.

Yeah, the BoGs would have to give their rubber stamp as they probably do to every big decision but unless you are privy to the BoGs goings on, it isn't obvious. You're not privy, and judging by your insults, the only petty hatred going on here is your attitude towards me.

[Resolute 14]

If it helps, my level of annoyance towards you isn't petty, but rather was formed from reading a large body of your work and finding it... lacking. Case in point, that exact reply. It is funny how your comments always imply that Bettman basically runs the league like a dictator, but when I challenge that assertion, you begin to hum and haw about how "it isn't obvious" and we aren't privy to what is actually going on.

Now, sport is an emotional thing. We're all passionate about the game and our team, and that emotional attachment will show in most cases. But seriously dude, sometimes you do have to detach that emotion, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the business side of things.

As an emotional sports fan, I would have killed to see Balsillie take the team to Hamilton against Toronto's will, simply because it would have been so damned entertaining. But logically, I understand why the league fought against it and I understand why the league is still working to find a buyer in Phoenix. I don't find value in parroting the same emotional argument over and over again. I like to look at what is being said, done and proposed and try to analyze it. It makes for a better debate.

Too much of this debate is dominated by an opinion that can be summarily dismissed as the blatherings of butthurt Canadians still pissed off at how Bettman personally "stole" their teams. It's not logical, and parroted repeatedly, is irritating. Everything you post in this thread has a common theme: You have locked yourself into an opinion that everything Bettman does is wrong, and everything that has happened in Phoenix is Bettman's doing. As such, you take any argument and twist it to suit that conclusion. You and I clash because I don't look at this with such preconceptions. I see what the landscape is and try to judge each new twist on its merits. That's why I believe now that the Coyotes are done after this season where I didn't this time last year. Because the situation changes, and that changes the predicted outcome.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

If it helps, my level of annoyance towards you isn't petty, but rather was formed from reading a large body of your work and finding it... lacking. Case in point, that exact reply. It is funny how your comments always imply that Bettman basically runs the league like a dictator, but when I challenge that assertion, you begin to hum and haw about how "it isn't obvious" and we aren't privy to what is actually going on.

Now, sport is an emotional thing. We're all passionate about the game and our team, and that emotional attachment will show in most cases. But seriously dude, sometimes you do have to detach that emotion, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the business side of things.

As an emotional sports fan, I would have killed to see Balsillie take the team to Hamilton against Toronto's will, simply because it would have been so damned entertaining. But logically, I understand why the league fought against it and I understand why the league is still working to find a buyer in Phoenix. I don't find value in parroting the same emotional argument over and over again. I like to look at what is being said, done and proposed and try to analyze it. It makes for a better debate.

Too much of this debate is dominated by an opinion that can be summarily dismissed as the blatherings of butthurt Canadians still pissed off at how Bettman personally "stole" their teams. It's not logical, and parroted repeatedly, is irritating. Everything you post in this thread has a common theme: You have locked yourself into an opinion that everything Bettman does is wrong, and everything that has happened in Phoenix is Bettman's doing. As such, you take any argument and twist it to suit that conclusion. You and I clash because I don't look at this with such preconceptions. I see what the landscape is and try to judge each new twist on its merits. That's why I believe now that the Coyotes are done after this season where I didn't this time last year. Because the situation changes, and that changes the predicted outcome.

Yeah your level of annoyance isn't petty, it shows by how you can't help yourself and continue to insult. Your insults make it obvious that you are the one getting emotional.

Bettman is the face of the league and I'd say is the most powerful man in the league. If the league folds the team, he's got to take responsibility.

The rest of your post is just the blathering of a person who doesn't know me and you do a bad job of pretending to do so. You don't want to get tripped on that lost cause again do you?

Oh and the Coyotes have been done since they declared bankruptcy, you, the CoG, it's few fans and Bettman have just been beating a dead horse.

[troutman]

Fewer signatures may be needed to get Coyotes deal on ballot

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/m...ed-to-get.html


Cobb said those leading a referendum against a city sales tax hike told him today of a lower threshold.

“Today the anti-sales tax initiative turned in their 4,138 signatures, and Connie Wilhelm phoned me, excitedly, with the information that the 2010 election participation number (11,309 voters) was the controlling basis,” Cobb said. “Our minimum number is only 1,131 signatures. We have that number.”

The referendum effort could end up in the courts with the Glendale fighting organizers over the number of signatures needed to get on the ballot and when those petitions are due.

Sources in Arizona say Jamison has the money to buy the team but is waiting on political and legal fights over the arena deal to be resolved.

[topfiverecords]

If they have enough signatures already they would be smart to just submit them on the 9th instead of fighting the legalities of the 30 days date.

[tjinaz]

as the statute changed in 2009 to "citywide" and "townwide" I believe the number they need to hit is around 1900. The key is 1900 fully vetted signatures as eligible voting citizens of Glendale. Also their deadline is the 9th. The documents were available on the 9th and they didn't request them till the 15th so.... deadline is the 9th.

The two 80 year olds trying to stop the Coyotes deal have a long way to go and a deadline on Monday.

[Notorious Honey Badger]

but without the sales tax how can the deal go thru?

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why isn't the focus of Coyotes fans on buying more season tickets (twice as many), and paying more for season tickets (twice as much)? This would get around a lot of the Glendale issues.

Seems like you're a lawyer and not an economist

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

The referendum listed is NOT about the Coyotes lease. It is a tax increase deal and while it may be going to a vote, once people really read it, I don't think it will pass. Also as the statute changed in 2009 to "citywide" and "townwide" I believe the number they need to hit is around 1900. The key is 1900 fully vetted signatures as eligible voting citizens of Glendale.

The two 80 year olds trying to stop the Coyotes deal have a long way to go and a deadline on Monday.

Read or re-read post 1473 and the article via the link.

[tjinaz]

Originally Posted by troutman
Why isn't the focus of Coyotes fans on buying more season tickets (twice as many), and paying more for season tickets (twice as much)? This would get around a lot of the Glendale issues.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...season-tickets

They are.

Phoenix Coyotes: Renewal rate more than 90 percent, the best in franchise history; more than 1,500 new sales.

Read or re-read post 1473 and the article via the link.

Yea assumed it was based off the Shoalts stuff. That is the right referendum. I edited.

Here is a good article from the front lines. Jones and Cobb vs Coyotes PAC.

Throwdown at the Library

http://www.yourwestvalley.com/topsto...9bb2963f4.html

[troutman]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nhl/stor...season-tickets

They are.

That doesn't tell us very much. What was the season ticket base to start with? Are prices still the 2nd lowest in the league? Are new sales full season ticket packages, or does this include game packs? What is the discount off face price for season tickets?

Instead of harrassing old men at libraries why isn't there an SOS ticket campaign? Why isn't the NHL requiring a minimum season ticket number like they did for Winnipeg?