Eh? Your link has stats that is over a decade out of date and is self admittedly too low of a number as it only accounts for several illnesses.
This figure is suggested to underestimate the overall economic cost of excess weight in Canada as it does not include the costs for those who are overweight, but not obese. Further, it only includes costs of adult obesity and costs associated with eight chronic diseases.
EDIT: And again, I'm not sure what the full number is in Canada. There was this report just a few months ago that suggest it was north of 20% for the US. (linked earlier in the thread: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0409103247.htm) The assumption is of course that the obesity rates are comparable along with the consequential cost. While one could argue that the rate is higher in the US, it is probably not much better. I would estimate that the cost is closer to 20% than 2% (given the 2% is already acknowledged by the source itself as being significantly underestimated).
Last edited by chemgear; 06-30-2012 at 09:44 PM.
Reason: Added Link
Some of the incredibly ignorant and hateful stuff being said here in BLANKET statements about obese people is frightening.
So often people who overeat are victims of abuse, bullying, and a 100 other emotional reasons.
I had thought about writing out a long well thought out post but reading this crap posted by intolerant people left me shaking with anger so I'll bow out and let more reasoned and calm people discuss this.
^ I apologize if I come across as being mean spirited or anything. Certainly not my intent.
I tend to be a numbers guy (see the stock/housing threads for my silly ramblings) and do appreciate it when people supply information and views that I didn't see before coming into a thread. I understand that there is an emotion component to this particular discussion, but I worry sometimes that the numbers and sheer scale of things is dismissed in light of the said emotion.
For those (especially early in the thread) who said such mean-spirited things about those who are obese, maybe it would be a good idea to read through the linked thread below...I ask you: how are you any different from these kids?
For those (especially early in the thread) who said such mean-spirited things about those who are obese, maybe it would be a good idea to read through the linked thread below...I ask you: how are you any different from these kids?
As I said in post 124 of that thread, the population of CP is generally no better than those kids when it comes to belittling others, insulting and generally being cruel. But then in that thread people are all "oh, what terrible brats.. how could they?".
BTW - Thanks for sharing your story above. Sounds very "Hanging Garden"ish. I don't know if it's the struggle for acceptance and feeling of being an outsider in a generally straight world, of it was just a complete coincidence, but it seemed that the population of the Overeaters Anonymous groups i attended had more gays/lesbians percentage wise than the general population. BTW - I forget who it was that PMed me with the details of Overeaters Anonymous, but I thank them greatly. It did help me talk through some things that were bothering me.
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Obese people are people. Mocking them is not going to help. Supporting and showing people that their self-worth isn't connected to their weight is a far more effective way to help them build healthy relationships with food and motivating to be physically active.
If I could, I'd thank your post 100 times for that paragraph alone.
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As I said previously, I am now going around the province (well two provinces... I've been going through Nova Scotia as well as Ontario) and visiting chapters of people wanting to lose weight. And I hear the stories from people where they tell me that their self worth is in the toilet and sometimes they don't want to leave the house and face the world. It's heartbreaking. And I'm there to give them a pat on the back, give them encouragement and applaud their efforts to lose the weight. One word of encouragement is infinitely more helpful than your scorn.
I'd actually like to hear more about this. People want to lose weight, so what are they doing about it? Are they trying the latest diet fad, then quitting after 2 weeks? Are they at least trying to exercise or be active? Are they trying to cut down on their food intake and look at what they eat?
Wow. Even in the question you sound scornful. "latest fad diet and then quitting" "at least trying". It's a good thing this is the internet because if this was real life... maybe, as Thor has done, maybe it's just good to step back and count to 10 and let cooler heads prevail.
But for your information, what my organization preaches is the same thing as what you would recommend for the other addition you mentioned - spending. If you overspend, you need to start tracking your spending, make a budget, make a plan, sit with a financial advisor, find where you can cut spending or find ways of making more money. Which, if you read my newspaper article is exactly what I did. I wrote down everything that I was eating. Looked at where I could cut back. Increased my exercise.
I said earlier in this thread that the most common question I get when out visiting chapters is about the loose skin. Second most common question is "What diet did you use?", expecting an answer like "South Beach", "Grapefruit", "Atkins"... and I say I used the only one that works: "Eat Less, Move More". And then I show them this video (though I concede that it is pretty insulting itself): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck
I think you and I agree on the mechanics of the whole thing. People need to (a) get off their butts and (b) really look at what they are eating. But the scorn you throw at them does absolutely NOTHING to motivate people to do that. As BV stated, SUPPORTING people that wish to improve their health is far more motivating. Now that I have lost the weight, I'm still with the organization, but my role is now more as an example of how the program works and as a cheerleader for those that are progressing and losing weight. But it's constantly a fight to keep morale up when people are constantly putting them down.
Wow. Even in the question you sound scornful. "latest fad diet and then quitting" "at least trying". It's a good thing this is the internet because if this was real life... maybe, as Thor has done, maybe it's just good to step back and count to 10 and let cooler heads prevail.
But for your information, what my organization preaches is the same thing as what you would recommend for the other addition you mentioned - spending. If you overspend, you need to start tracking your spending, make a budget, make a plan, sit with a financial advisor, find where you can cut spending or find ways of making more money. Which, if you read my newspaper article is exactly what I did. I wrote down everything that I was eating. Looked at where I could cut back. Increased my exercise.
I said earlier in this thread that the most common question I get when out visiting chapters is about the loose skin. Second most common question is "What diet did you use?", expecting an answer like "South Beach", "Grapefruit", "Atkins"... and I say I used the only one that works: "Eat Less, Move More". And then I show them this video (though I concede that it is pretty insulting itself): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck
I think you and I agree on the mechanics of the whole thing. People need to (a) get off their butts and (b) really look at what they are eating. But the scorn you throw at them does absolutely NOTHING to motivate people to do that. As BV stated, SUPPORTING people that wish to improve their health is far more motivating. Now that I have lost the weight, I'm still with the organization, but my role is now more as an example of how the program works and as a cheerleader for those that are progressing and losing weight. But it's constantly a fight to keep morale up when people are constantly putting them down.
I'm pretty happy for people that are totally overweight when I see them out exercising or running. I'm happy when I see a very overweight person at the gym. Sometimes I feel as I'm running past or driving or seeing them out I want to give them a little pat on the back. However, that often seems like it could be a little condescending. Also some of these people might not think they are overweight and are just out doing something. So for those people they might think "wtf are you talking about".
Wow. Even in the question you sound scornful. "latest fad diet and then quitting" "at least trying". It's a good thing this is the internet because if this was real life... maybe, as Thor has done, maybe it's just good to step back and count to 10 and let cooler heads prevail.
You guys are awesome. Getting your shots in and then pretending to take the high road. Nice.
Regardless, I'm somewhat surprised that you latched on to the one solution that was clearly a joke. The other two are the real solutions, and we obviously agree on those, and neither of those had any element of scorn or condescension.
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But for your information, what my organization preaches is the same thing as what you would recommend for the other addition you mentioned - spending. If you overspend, you need to start tracking your spending, make a budget, make a plan, sit with a financial advisor, find where you can cut spending or find ways of making more money. Which, if you read my newspaper article is exactly what I did. I wrote down everything that I was eating. Looked at where I could cut back. Increased my exercise.
Sounds like a plan. The thing is, I am not even aiming all my words at the people that go to your support group. Those people are obviously looking for help, and have decided that they want to improve their health or change their lifestyle. They obviously need support, and I'm glad that there are groups like yours that will provide them with all of the resources that they need.
And yes, I am intolerant of inaction. I absolutely despise people that complain and complain about a solvable problem, and then choose to do nothing about it. There are so many other issues in the world that you cannot decide on - sexual orientation is another one that ben brought up (in fact, I thought about listing that, then Mustard might've been like "you empathize with short, bald and gay people, noone wants to hang out with you"), that there really is no action to be taken.
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I said earlier in this thread that the most common question I get when out visiting chapters is about the loose skin. Second most common question is "What diet did you use?", expecting an answer like "South Beach", "Grapefruit", "Atkins"... and I say I used the only one that works: "Eat Less, Move More". And then I show them this video (though I concede that it is pretty insulting itself): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKs0oEIVOck
You know, maybe my "joke" solution isn't as much of a joke as I thought. I'm glad that you give your members the proper information - that these diets are all garbage and can't really replace activity + eating. But the fact that so many people bring this question up, doesn't that tell you that there are so many obese people out there that ONLY try this, and then give up when it doesn't work? I don't really think "2 weeks of dieting" is an improvement in a lifestyle. In fact, I think dieting is extremely harmful to a person's health, and it is why I don't accept that they're "at least trying" when they diet.
Quote:
I think you and I agree on the mechanics of the whole thing. People need to (a) get off their butts and (b) really look at what they are eating. But the scorn you throw at them does absolutely NOTHING to motivate people to do that. As BV stated, SUPPORTING people that wish to improve their health is far more motivating. Now that I have lost the weight, I'm still with the organization, but my role is now more as an example of how the program works and as a cheerleader for those that are progressing and losing weight. But it's constantly a fight to keep morale up when people are constantly putting them down.
Agreed 100%. I've never said anything otherwise.
My original post in this thread said that if I was obese, and blamed my obesity on drinking canned beer due to BPA absorption, I should be ridiculed. I'm not exactly sure how it turned into this.
Walking around the festivities at Fort Calgary and biggest observation is that this is a fat and ugly nation. Nobody takes care of themselves anymore. It's gross.
My original post in this thread said that if I was obese, and blamed my obesity on drinking canned beer due to BPA absorption, I should be ridiculed. I'm not exactly sure how it turned into this.
Eh? Your link has stats that is over a decade out of date and is self admittedly too low of a number as it only accounts for several illnesses.
This figure is suggested to underestimate the overall economic cost of excess weight in Canada as it does not include the costs for those who are overweight, but not obese. Further, it only includes costs of adult obesity and costs associated with eight chronic diseases.
EDIT: And again, I'm not sure what the full number is in Canada. There was this report just a few months ago that suggest it was north of 20% for the US. (linked earlier in the thread: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0409103247.htm) The assumption is of course that the obesity rates are comparable along with the consequential cost. While one could argue that the rate is higher in the US, it is probably not much better. I would estimate that the cost is closer to 20% than 2% (given the 2% is already acknowledged by the source itself as being significantly underestimated).
Alright, where to start… Yes it admits that it’s too low, but its first reason for this is because it doesn’t include people who are overweight. I’ve found many sources who have stated that being overweight does not notably influence your health or healthcare costs. In fact, I took the time to read the research article that your Science Daily article was based on (The medical care costs of obesity: An instrumental variables approach), and it said itself “It is reasonable to combine the healthy weight and overweight in this context because the two groups have similar health care costs”, so that should not increase the predicted medical costs.
While my source (PHAC) does say that it may “underestimate the overall economic cost of excess weight in Canada”, it does not say it is “significantly underestimated” (those were your words, not theirs). One would assume that if they thought it was “significantly” underestimated (say by 20% or so) they would have actually said “significantly”.
In addition to this, the information that you’re quoting is from the US. If you do a quick google search of obesity by country Canada is generally placed much lower than the US, so I don’t think using information about the US is particularly relevant since I would guess that the majority of the users on this forum are from Canada (I haven't read the whole article, but just as an example this article from 2012 places Canada quite a bit lower for obesity rates when compared to the US: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/1/61/49716427.pdf). My information may be a bit out of date, but at least it’s from the right country (though to be fair, the information in the research article that your Science Daily article talks about comes from 2000-2005, which is also 7-12 years old, so I guess that’s a bit out of date too, no?)
Some things that make me question the validity of the research done for your article is that they chose to use only individuals who were between 20-64 years old, with biological children who were 11-20 years old.
First, how many 20 year olds do you know that have biological children that are 11 (since that would make them 9 when they had the child)? In my opinion I would say that means that this information is more likely coming from individuals who are 29-64 years old (though I suppose we could reasonably say that it’s 26-64 since it’s not completely out of line for a 15 year old to have a child). As people age they naturally gain weight, so we’re already using a group of people who are more likely to be heavier, so I’m not sure if this accurately reflects the general population. Based on their numbers, people who are 35-54 years old represent 86% of their data, but I certainly don’t think 86% of the US population is between the ages of 35-54 years old (please correct me if I’m wrong, I have no stats on this).
In addition to weight going up with age, health goes down, so the older you are the more likely you are to have health problems, whether obese or not. Not only are they taking an age group that is more likely to be heavier, they’re also taking an age group that is more likely to have health problems. They even go so far as to say in the article “We acknowledge that the effect of obesity in our subpopulation...may not generalize to the entire population, so the primary focus of this paper is the marginal effect of obesity for our subpopulation rather than the national estimate.”
Another thing that makes me wary of using this population to represent the entire nation is that, from personal experience, I find that it is harder for people with children to find time to be active, and they’ll also possibly have less money to devote to healthier foods (since they’re using more of their income for the needs of their child). In addition to this, it is very common for women to gain weight when they have children, and with the new commitments that they have with this child it’s often quite hard to lose that weight. For these reasons, using only a population of people who have children seems flawed to me.
They also state in the article:
“It is a very small percentage of the sample at high levels of BMI that incur disproportionate shares of obesity-related medical costs”
And
“The large average effects of obesity… are explained by relatively few individuals with very high BMI that incur very high medical expenditures”
Which admits that simply being “obese” by BMI definition does not automatically equal being an economic burden, rather it is a very small percentage of people who have an unusually high BMI that are accounting for this significantly increased cost.
I admit that it seems nearly impossible to do research that is 100% perfect with no flaws to speak of; all I’m saying is that it’s important to look at things with a critical eye. Journals don’t always report all the information, (even Science Daily apparently) so you can’t always take what they say at face value.
Some other interesting things that I did notice throughout that article and thought were worth mentioning:
There was a strong emphasis on how influential genetics are on BMI. In addition to other things, they succinctly stated that “A large literature in behavioral genetics confirms that there is a strong genetic component to weight, and that any similarity in weight due to shared environment is so small as to be undetectable.” I think this basically says that environment has a very small role in having a higher BMI for most individuals, and so the argument that it is genetics and thus incredibly hard to change is completely relevant.
Also, they had a graph showing the medical care expenditures for the adults in their sample. I’m not sure of the legality of posting a copy of this graph as it’s an article that has to be paid for, but it does show that medical costs do not start to significantly increase until a BMI of ~35. In fact, the medical expenditure for a person with a BMI of 17.5 (considered to be a “healthy” or “normal” BMI) is about the same as the medical expenditures of someone with a BMI of 35. This article seems to uphold the statement that flylock shox made earlier about health problems not going up significantly until BMI reaches 35.
Last edited by bcsoda; 07-01-2012 at 08:06 PM.
Reason: fixing a word
When calculating the costs of obesity you have to include a lot more than the medical costs. Obese people tend to have less energy, sleep worse, and have more minor injuries from physical exercise and as a result are less productive than people of a healthy weight. This tends to take a tole on a persons quality of life and happiness. In addition, this reduced energy and lack of quality sleep often is what prevents people from making the meaningful changes necessary to lose the weight.
Biggest reason for this is that willpower, focus and concentration is a limited shares resource and is recharged through sleep and light exercise. It can, however be enhanced with meditation and other mental exercises and for many people doing this is all that necessary to get the ball rolling towards a healthier lifestyle, even without making a special effort to do so.
I wish I could find the link now but I read a reasonably recent study that indicated the biggest difference between people with healthy body fat level and those with a lot of excess is that the fat ones thought they ate less than they really did while the healthy ones thought they ate more than they actually did. Just shows why tracking what you eat us so effective for fat loss.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sworkhard
When calculating the costs of obesity you have to include a lot more than the medical costs. Obese people tend to have less energy, sleep worse, and have more minor injuries from physical exercise and as a result are less productive than people of a healthy weight. This tends to take a tole on a persons quality of life and happiness. In addition, this reduced energy and lack of quality sleep often is what prevents people from making the meaningful changes necessary to lose the weight.
Biggest reason for this is that willpower, focus and concentration is a limited shares resource and is recharged through sleep and light exercise. It can, however be enhanced with meditation and other mental exercises and for many people doing this is all that necessary to get the ball rolling towards a healthier lifestyle, even without making a special effort to do so.
I wish I could find the link now but I read a reasonably recent study that indicated the biggest difference between people with healthy body fat level and those with a lot of excess is that the fat ones thought they ate less than they really did while the healthy ones thought they ate more than they actually did. Just shows why tracking what you eat us so effective for fat loss.
A low functioning thyroid and a pituitary gland that isn't producing enough growth hormone also play a role in obese people not being able to lose weight.
A low functioning thyroid and a pituitary gland that isn't producing enough growth hormone also play a role in obese people not being able to lose weight.
For sure. Good news is there are a lot of remedies (both mainstream and alternative medicine) that can help fix this for most people. I know several people who lost a lot a weight after getting some thyroid help. Most of them don't need it anymore now that that are down to a more healthy weight.
I was lucky. When I came out of the closet and ditched my religion, I gained some confidence and a sense of self-worth. I worked really hard and got down to 150lbs. However, I still struggle to see food in a healthy way. I still have issues with comfort/celebration eating. I still struggle to eat an appropriate amount of food. I have gone up and down and am currently up a bit (175ish). I don't feel good about myself for it but I have faith that I can get on track again.
.
A: good work
B: haha, stupid religion
C: tell more people your story, it's motivational. I'm always trying to get my overweight dad and friends to workout with me, damn near impossible to motivate the unmotivated.
As far as the issue of exercise and diets is concerned most people just have no actual education regarding proper management of exercise, metabolism, nutrition and sleep. One of my overweight friends literally had no idea what nutrition was until he stayed at my house for a few days, I'd say the education system in Canada fails pretty hard in the realms of teaching people how to take care of their body. Sure they have the food pyramid stuff in grade 7, but there should be books or videos in school showing the actual lifestyle habits of a healthy person (get up earlier, go to sleep at the same time every night, healthy diet, disciplined exercise habits) contrasted against an overweight person (terrible sleep patterns, terrible diet with way too many empty calories, no exercise).
I blame it as much on misinformation growing up as I do laziness. My friends saw me eating spinach, kale and drinking a smoothie and they called me weird while they pound back burgers from Wendies, it's a backward society that would rather go buy fast food than put a little effort into being healthy because they don't know how to. Most people out there that are still young, when shown the path to a healthy lifestyle, will follow it if you show them the actual habits and tendencies of a healthy person. It's one thing to say just get off the couch and stop being lazy and another to show them why and how they can do it. Who wouldn't want to be more awake, feel happier and more energetic if they had a choice?
One positive thing I have noticed is a massive growth in the amount of healthy products in the grocery store, soon the majority will probably be organic products that actually provide nutrition. For example in superstore there's a new organics aisle, I just bought organic pancake mix and organic eggs and agave nectar to use as syrup. It's possible to eat 8 pancakes that are healthy and taste better than normal pancakes, people just don't know about them and there are a million other things like that.
Last edited by vektor; 07-02-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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When calculating the costs of obesity you have to include a lot more than the medical costs. Obese people tend to have less energy, sleep worse, and have more minor injuries from physical exercise and as a result are less productive than people of a healthy weight. This tends to take a tole on a persons quality of life and happiness. In addition, this reduced energy and lack of quality sleep often is what prevents people from making the meaningful changes necessary to lose the weight.
Biggest reason for this is that willpower, focus and concentration is a limited shares resource and is recharged through sleep and light exercise. It can, however be enhanced with meditation and other mental exercises and for many people doing this is all that necessary to get the ball rolling towards a healthier lifestyle, even without making a special effort to do so.
I wish I could find the link now but I read a reasonably recent study that indicated the biggest difference between people with healthy body fat level and those with a lot of excess is that the fat ones thought they ate less than they really did while the healthy ones thought they ate more than they actually did. Just shows why tracking what you eat us so effective for fat loss.
Please post or PM the article if you find it (this topic in general is really interesting for me). Also, do you have an article that talks about being less productive due to less sleep, energy, etc? I'd be interested to read that as well.
I'm pretty happy for people that are totally overweight when I see them out exercising or running. I'm happy when I see a very overweight person at the gym. Sometimes I feel as I'm running past or driving or seeing them out I want to give them a little pat on the back. However, that often seems like it could be a little condescending. Also some of these people might not think they are overweight and are just out doing something. So for those people they might think "wtf are you talking about".
I watched extreme makeover weightloss edition last night. The guy on there went from 493# to 238# in exactly 1 year. Half way through, at 317# he ran a triathalon with his trainer. 1.5 km swim, 40 km bike and 10 km run. During the run there were people passing him (yes he was pretty damn good in the water and on the bike) and offering congratulations and inspirations and telling him not to quit. I don't think he took it as condescending at all. I think he found it very helpful.
He finished in 4 hours and 20 minutes, his goal had been 6 hours.
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I watched extreme makeover weightloss edition last night. The guy on there went from 493# to 238# in exactly 1 year. Half way through, at 317# he ran a triathalon with his trainer. 1.5 km swim, 40 km bike and 10 km run. During the run there were people passing him (yes he was pretty damn good in the water and on the bike) and offering congratulations and inspirations and telling him not to quit. I don't think he took it as condescending at all. I think he found it very helpful.
He finished in 4 hours and 20 minutes, his goal had been 6 hours.
While I can see the point your making is that people may appreciate the encouragement, the mention that you saw this on Extreme Makeover Weightloss Edition doesn't sit too well with me. I haven't heard a lot about that show in particular, but I did recently read an interview with a former contestant from The Biggest Loser (http://www.bodylovewellness.com/2010...t-part-1-of-3/).
What she describes is pretty despicable, and at first I was wondering if this was the way it was, why don't more former contestants speak up about it? Turns out that they sign a contract saying they can be fined from $100,000 to $1,000,000 if they conduct an interview that isn't approved by The Biggest Loser in advance. There's no way that this company is going to approve of an interview that's speaking poorly of what they're doing, so of course there's going to be an incredibly low number of contestants talking about it. I guess this still is just the voice of one contestant, so maybe it's not as bad as she makes it out to be, but it looks like the show has made sure we'll never really know. I'd be curious to know if Extreme Makeover Weightloss Edition has the same clause as The Biggest Loser.
Also, I think it's hard to tell how someone is actually taking something based on a TV show. I didn't see the episode myself, but it's possible it was edited to make it look like he was appreciating those comments, or maybe he was even told that that's how he needed to act because they wanted to put that kind of thing in the episode because it makes better TV.
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